Franz Wagner Thread

[Straight forward2]

Time to give a little shout out for this German gem. Seems like he will end up the top European pick in NBA DRAFT 2021. Projected around 8-12 picks. I paid more attention to him and I love him, nearly absolutely love him. Super smooth 6'9 forward, terrific handles (it's truly close to guard handles in his case), impressive passer. What stands outs instantly, however, is his special motor and passion for the game, it just stand outs instantly. That passion for the game. He's an efficient all around scorer and basically complete offensive profile despite not entirely quick and super good looking trigger. His feel for the game, handles, passing is really up to the point when he should really be able to be a point forward, secondary facilitator. Decent, but not great defender. He's gonna be a big piece for Germany. Surely more talented than his bro NBA player Moritz Wagner. Huge European talent, IMO, and will leave a mark into FIBA Euro ball history as well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kebUNG6Xhc

 

[Toruko2]

What are you talking about. He is a lockdown defender and a good passer but cant create much space, so nothing like guard level handling skills etc. His great plus is his perimeter, rotation and help defense. Thats what makes him interesting, not his handles etc.

 

[Straight forward2]

What are you talking about. He is a lockdown defender and a good passer but cant create much space, so nothing like guard level handling skills etc. His great plus is his perimeter, rotation and help defense. Thats what makes him interesting, not his handles etc.

How would you back it up? Give me one solid scouting paper were it's said he's a lockdown defender please? Dude, he's an offensive player. Some scouts call him "bad" defender literally:

Defense

​
The defense is something that Franz Wagner is bad. The things that are average here are that of his team defense awareness, some flashes on ISOs, and ball-handler defenses. He talks on defence, often directing teammates. Good help defender rotating on the baseline or perimeter for keeping the basket/rim with quick hands, and reaction. He does a pretty nice job tagging the roller in help and then getting back to his man. Had some flashes of pesky defender on ISOs with body contact, and eye-hand coordination. Also, Franz is able to make pressure to limit the ball handler's court vision during PnR. He gives his opponent a bad angle. However, end of the day, I think FW is a bad defender. He can protect the rim but just with the classic blocks (0.6 BPG). Wagner cannot defend quick players. He has potential switching in PnR in a pinch but I think he is not someone can defend roller with high energy or IQ. He showed potential on off-screen defense a little bit but he is not someone to follow his opponent around the screen usually. He can defend the CnS shooters thanks to his length but not consistent. I think his ISO defense is not good. FW has quick hands, also, I think his game IQ is good but he cannot read opponents offense on ISOs. I think his lack of power, end elite lateral movement hurts him about that. Good rebounder in terms of classically. I mean, Wagner is not someone who fights for the rebounds. He reads the game well and moves to the rebound zone. He uses his length advantage and gets the rebound. I guess Wagner will have big problems in the NBA on defense. These problems that he will experience may negatively affect his mental resistance. However, when looking at a draft player in the modern period, the things can do on offense are generally considered important. I think this subject differs from person to person, I think defense is important. However, in the NBA's offensive weighted system, Wagner can find the ideal time to fix defects on defense.


Summary

​
I think Wagner's ability to use his physically owned tools like a guard and his shooting skills make him a good prospect. But in order to improve his level, he needs shot consistency, strength, vertical pop, lateral movement, average defense, and mental resistance.

https://www.nbadraftjunkies.com/franz-wagner

 

[Toruko2]

How would you back it up? Give me one solid scouting paper were it's said he's a lockdown defender please? Dude, he's an offensive player. Some scouts call him "bad" defender literally:

Defense

​
The defense is something that Franz Wagner is bad. The things that are average here are that of his team defense awareness, some flashes on ISOs, and ball-handler defenses. He talks on defence, often directing teammates. Good help defender rotating on the baseline or perimeter for keeping the basket/rim with quick hands, and reaction. He does a pretty nice job tagging the roller in help and then getting back to his man. Had some flashes of pesky defender on ISOs with body contact, and eye-hand coordination. Also, Franz is able to make pressure to limit the ball handler's court vision during PnR. He gives his opponent a bad angle. However, end of the day, I think FW is a bad defender. He can protect the rim but just with the classic blocks (0.6 BPG). Wagner cannot defend quick players. He has potential switching in PnR in a pinch but I think he is not someone can defend roller with high energy or IQ. He showed potential on off-screen defense a little bit but he is not someone to follow his opponent around the screen usually. He can defend the CnS shooters thanks to his length but not consistent. I think his ISO defense is not good. FW has quick hands, also, I think his game IQ is good but he cannot read opponents offense on ISOs. I think his lack of power, end elite lateral movement hurts him about that. Good rebounder in terms of classically. I mean, Wagner is not someone who fights for the rebounds. He reads the game well and moves to the rebound zone. He uses his length advantage and gets the rebound. I guess Wagner will have big problems in the NBA on defense. These problems that he will experience may negatively affect his mental resistance. However, when looking at a draft player in the modern period, the things can do on offense are generally considered important. I think this subject differs from person to person, I think defense is important. However, in the NBA's offensive weighted system, Wagner can find the ideal time to fix defects on defense.


Summary

​
I think Wagner's ability to use his physically owned tools like a guard and his shooting skills make him a good prospect. But in order to improve his level, he needs shot consistency, strength, vertical pop, lateral movement, average defense, and mental resistance.

https://www.nbadraftjunkies.com/franz-wagner

Yeah this was 2 years ago

For all his ability on offense, his NBA value lies in his defensive range and ability … He can easily guard 2-4 in the NBA, and could guard a point guard or center in a pinch … His defensive versatility matches perfectly with the evolving pro game, as switching on screens and defending multiple positions is becoming a key to defensive success … Long, with active hands, Wagner reads the game well and can disrupt opposing offenses … Is tough to get around, as he has a strong frame and move well laterally … He has excellent understanding of defensive positioning, as he often rotates to take away passing lanes, before recovering well to his man…His IQ and length allow him to contest shots really well … Shooting form looks solid …

Your problem is you never watch player except the Lithuanians. This dude made a huge jump on the defensive end. Shortly said he is the best wing defender that I saw in a long time.

 

[Straight forward2]

OK, there are those who praise his D...I'm confused because I went through like 4 scouting papers which marked his D as average or worse, and then I found one where it's really good. Anyway, I watched all his offensive highlights and I love it.

If he's a good defender as well, I understand why they project him around 8 pick now.

 

[Toruko2]

OK, there are those who praise his D...I'm confused because I went through like 4 scouting papers which marked his D as average or worse, and then I found one where it's really good. Anyway, I watched all his offensive highlights and I love it.

If he's a good defender as well, I understand why they project him around 8 pick now.

OK, maybe I should give a short break down since it is really a bit confusing.

He was a below average defender in Berlin before he went to Miami to College but he made an unbelievable jump on the defensive end. Where should I start: ok, he is switchable and can defend 1-4 in near future, he is great in avoiding screens and contesting shots from behind, he can read games very well, he chases pin down shooter, going under screens in the right time, he is a great defender! But he is not only a great defender personally, he also helps the team defense a lot.

Offensively, he lacks creating space for himself, cant surely finish reliably for himself. He has upside to be a good spot up shooter one day but not now, a good passer but due to a lack of handling skills, he makes many mistakes.

He is an elite role player material who can do a bit more than 3 and D.

I think thats a good summary for him.

 

[Toruko2]

His brother Moritz is a very bad defender thats the reason why he is on the verge of losing his position in the NBA.

 

[Straight forward2]

Offensively, he lacks creating space for himself, cant surely finish reliably for himself. He has upside to be a good spot up shooter one day but not now, a good passer but due to a lack of handling skills, he makes many mistakes.

Thanks for update on his defensive improvements. On other hand, I really don't see lack of handles, though would have to watch couple of entire games. He is projected as secondary distributor by some, that breed is not possible without handles. It's just highlights, but it's all clean and smooth out there: low, precise, close to the body, effortless dribbles. Anyway, let's continue later when I'll see him balling live. Big Euro prospect, that's a fact.

Wagner can score, rebound and he’s developing as a secondary distributor. He has a quick release and a clean stroke from long range, although his numbers don’t jump off the page. A high basketball IQ player, Wagner moves well without the ball and isn’t afraid to take the big shot. He has good size for an NBA wing, although he is an average athlete at best.

https://www.mlive.com/wolverines/20...er-is-a-projected-nba-draft-lottery-pick.html

 

[Toruko2]

If I may make a comment about handling the ball. The point is not if a wing can put the ball on the floor in a tempting way. Franz can indeed finish the ball in fast break situations. Is this valuable? Of course! Is it enough? No way! The precious part of handling the ball is either creating for yourself or for others in the set offense. Is he that good. Not in 1000 years. This is shortly said on ball offense.

 

[Toruko2]

This is also the difference between Jovic or Prkacin. Prkacin has really big difficulties with creating for himself, Jovic on the other hand has it. This is a huge difference.

 

[Straight forward2]

Franz Wagner with a good NBA start. Pays like vet. Among top 5 rookies thus far. Damn, Germany will be tough cookie in Eurobasket 2022.

 

[Straight forward2]

Career high 28pts.

Career-high 28 PTS on 18 shots for Magic forward Franz Wagner, who has hit double figures in every game and is averaging 15.6 PTS while shooting 54% from 2 and 46% from 3. So versatile. Can handle or screen in PnR at 6-10. Plays a simple game. Defends with energy. Just turned 20.

https://twitter.com/Mike_Schmitz/status/1455531060104732676

 

[Straight forward2]

Career high 28pts.

Now it's 38pts.

Franz climbs to Rookie ladder to the no.1. Impressive.

IMO, this season NBA has so many good rookies. Jalen Green is 10th which is pretty crazy.

https://www.nba.com/news/kia-rookie-ladder-dec-29-2021

 

[Toruko2]

Now it's 38pts.

Franz climbs to Rookie ladder to the no.1. Impressive.

IMO, this season NBA has so many good rookies. Jalen Green is 10th which is pretty crazy.

https://www.nba.com/news/kia-rookie-ladder-dec-29-2021

Those rankings are not important and they say nothing. Orlando is a trash team and Franz has every freedom to use every ball. He has grabbed the chance no doubt but he is not the best rookie or something like that.

He only showed that he is gonna be a premium role player sooner than later. There are many players who have more value than him.

 

[Straight forward2]

Those rankings are not important and they say nothing. Orlando is a trash team and Franz has every freedom to use every ball. He has grabbed the chance no doubt but he is not the best rookie or something like that.

He only showed that he is gonna be a premium role player sooner than later. There are many players who have more value than him.

Most of the top rookies teams are trash teams That's why they have top picks. Only Cavaliers is surprise standing 5th in East, but that's more like RS thing I think.

We'll see, either super role player, or even something more. I think he has an upside of a star in the league.

There's no one obvious best rookie this season, but I bunch of really good rookies. I like Wagner, Mobley, Giddey, Sengun the most. And Giddey is my favorite from the bunch, most fun to watch and in a long run may be most impactful as tall PG prodigy.

 

[Toruko2]

Most of the top rookies teams are trash teams That's why they have top picks. Only Cavaliers is surprise standing 5th in East, but that's more like RS thing I think.

We'll see, either super role player, or even something more. I think he has an upside of a star in the league.

There's no one obvious best rookie this season, but I bunch of really good rookies. I like Wagner, Mobley, Giddey, Sengun the most. And Giddey is my favorite from the bunch, most fun to watch and in a long run may be most impactful as tall PG prodigy.

His ball handling skills are more than crappy. He is fast but he doesnt have to deal with defenses, I dont buy his shots. They are mostly uncontested and totally free and look very awkward.

The good is he had a growing push with 20 years old which is really surprising. He looks around 6'11 and has a great feel for team defenses, his pick and roll defense as well as help defenses look awesome but offense is still more than questionable. Scottie Barnes as a two way wing is very special and Mobley

Giddey and Sengün seem ok.

Green has been underperforming but he takes also stupidly tough shots but still has the tools for being the best scorer in the league but he also could end up like the next Westbrook.

Suggs sucks.

No need to get overhyped because of Franz. His playing time will decrease and usage too if Fultz and the others come back.

 

[Straight forward2]

His ball handling skills are more than crappy. He is fast but he doesnt have to deal with defenses, I dont buy his shots. They are mostly uncontested and totally free and look very awkward.

The good is he had a growing push with 20 years old which is really surprising. He looks around 6'11 and has a great feel for team defenses, his pick and roll defense as well as help defenses look awesome but offense is still more than questionable. Scottie Barnes as a two way wing is very special and Mobley

Giddey and Sengün seem ok.

Green has been underperforming but he takes also stupidly tough shots but still has the tools for being the best scorer in the league but he also could end up like the next Westbrook.

Suggs sucks.

No need to get overhyped because of Franz. His playing time will decrease and usage too if Fultz and the others come back.

Crappy is surely exaggeration. Not super smooth, but it works. He gets were he wants and he can still improve it. Shot, yeah, it's not pretty, but it goes down, 37% is really good and he's a good FT shooter. So if it works, it works. Won't be a good shooter, but solid seems like written into a stone. Lately he has been making a huge strides froward, he was getting more ISO action, more facilitating and ect.

Franz is one of the best European prospects nevertheless. That's the fact. As well as Sengun.

How would you rank best European prospects overall? Both EL and NBA or else.

 

[Toruko2]

Crappy is surely exaggeration. Not super smooth, but it works. He gets were he wants and he can still improve it. Shot, yeah, it's not pretty, but it goes down, 37% is really good and he's a good FT shooter. So if it works, it works. Won't be a good shooter, but solid seems like written into a stone. Lately he has been making a huge strides froward, he was getting more ISO action, more facilitating and ect.

Franz is one of the best European prospects nevertheless. That's the fact. As well as Sengun.

How would you rank best European prospects overall? Both EL and NBA or else.

He uses just his strong hand and this makes him very predictable but due to his speed and ok footwork he kinda creates his shots but I dont see anything special on offense. The shot percentage will decrease in FIBA games for sure, a little bit more contest and they wont fall but he is a great cutter that must be said.

Petrusev cant even dream of playing in the NBA. His defense is total trash, it is really and his offense wont work in the NBA to survive there. Actually I am even not sure about EL for a contesting team.

Garuba doesnt look very happy about his role in Houston. Will need some time but has too good tools on the defensive end. If his shot comes around somewhere he will be a good poor mans Dreymond Green (in the best case).

My thoughts about Jokubaitis changed positively. I think that in some years he can be a play maker for a playoff team or a starter with a rebuilding team but it would be better for him to stay in Europe and have a good career.

Sengün and Franz are the most ready and the best player in this draft class among europeans. Franz is even more ready right now. Sengün has clearly the higher ceiling but his body is not ready at all right now and he must learn to defend and get used to the speed.

So I would say ceilingwise:

Sengün
Wagner
Jokubaitis / Garuba
Yurtseven
Petrusev

Overall not the strongest European draft.

 

[Straight forward2]

He uses just his strong hand and this makes him very predictable but due to his speed and ok footwork he kinda creates his shots but I dont see anything special on offense. The shot percentage will decrease in FIBA games for sure, a little bit more contest and they wont fall but he is a great cutter that must be said.

Petrusev cant even dream of playing in the NBA. His defense is total trash, it is really and his offense wont work in the NBA to survive there. Actually I am even not sure about EL for a contesting team.

Garuba doesnt look very happy about his role in Houston. Will need some time but has too good tools on the defensive end. If his shot comes around somewhere he will be a good poor mans Dreymond Green (in the best case).

My thoughts about Jokubaitis changed positively. I think that in some years he can be a play maker for a playoff team or a starter with a rebuilding team but it would be better for him to stay in Europe and have a good career.

Sengün and Franz are the most ready and the best player in this draft class among europeans. Franz is even more ready right now. Sengün has clearly the higher ceiling but his body is not ready at all right now and he must learn to defend and get used to the speed.

So I would say ceilingwise:

Sengün
Wagner
Jokubaitis / Garuba
Yurtseven
Petrusev

Overall not the strongest European draft.

Well I agree about many things. And, yeah, Franz might be much less effective in FIBA than NBA, but If he can knock down shots from three it will be different story than with Giannis (at least thus far). Also Sengun as well most likely be much worse in FIBA than in NBA (we already discussed), but we'll see. Actually from the bunch, Jokubaitis might be the most impactful piece in FIBA as FIBA is ultimate guards competition. Players as Patty Mills (solid NBA player at best) is superstar in FIBA.

Including Yurtseven is funny though IMO, Petrusev has way higher upside and I would even think Santi Aldama, J. Begarin and Kalaitzakis have bigger upside than traditional limited lad Yurtseven.

I was actually asking much more difficult question. Like what are fundamentally best European prospects overall? From what I've seen I would make such shot (under 22, so leaving obvious king Luka aside). In the perspective of NBA lets say:

1. Victor Wembanyama
2. Paolo Banchero
3. Matas Buzelis
4. Nikola Jovic
5. Alperen Sengun
5. Franz Wagner
6. Rokas Jokubaitis
7. Aleksej Pokusevski

(...)

Difficult task, but something like that, IMO...

 

[Toruko2]

Well I agree about many things. And, yeah, Franz might be much less effective in FIBA than NBA, but If he can knock down shots from three it will be different story than with Giannis (at least thus far). Also Sengun as well most likely be much worse in FIBA than in NBA (we already discussed), but we'll see. Actually from the bunch, Jokubaitis might be the most impactful piece in FIBA as FIBA is ultimate guards competition. Players as Patty Mills (solid NBA player at best) is superstar in FIBA.

Including Yurtseven is funny though IMO, Petrusev has way higher upside and I would even think Santi Aldama, J. Begarin and Kalaitzakis have bigger upside than traditional limited lad Yurtseven.

I was actually asking much more difficult question. Like what are fundamentally best European prospects overall? From what I've seen I would make such shot (under 22, so leaving obvious king Luka aside). In the perspective of NBA lets say:

1. Victor Wembanyama
2. Paolo Banchero
3. Matas Buzelis
4. Nikola Jovic
5. Alperen Sengun
5. Franz Wagner
6. Rokas Jokubaitis
7. Aleksej Pokusevski

(...)

Difficult task, but something like that, IMO...

Oh you meant all the European prospects also from the future? I just took the 2021 rookies into account.

Kalaitzakis showed nowhere nothing and he doesnt have any game that could be taken seriously. Being 22 he is anxious, he cant see much and overexcited in all his doings and I forgot about Aldama, yeah you are right. He hasnt shown much so far but he is definitely more versatile than Yurt but Yurt was not meant to be taking part in the NBA in any way so he is slow and has some deficiencies but he is using his chances in a very difficult position fully and he is developing greatly. I remember our discussion and that you wrote he showed less than some Lithuanians and I am surprised about his season by myself. Working with Udonis Haslem lead to a great outcome. I dont see him in front of Dedmon but he is doing fine.