FINALS: USA vs Spain

[Southpaw2]

And you also are basing this claim on what ground? (NBA...?) So you are saying that if you take away Durant, Kobe, LeBron, Melo... and replace them with some avarage players from other NT-teams that Paul and Williams would tear Spain, Russia and others apart. Be serious please.

You are also forgetting that if you have Durant and James in your team, everybody looks better on court, a pg playing with great players has better chances to be better because defense actually isnt focused on them...

I noticed this year that some pg-s that went from Europe to the NBA (like Rubio, Lawson, Dragic...) had unreal statistics. I was wondering why is that so I came to the conclusion that the pg-spot is by far the weakest in the NBA. Maybe it is because there are too many games in the season and most games are meaningless more or less run&gun games, I dont know, still havent found an answer. Forwards, scorers and centers in the NBA are truly the best in the world by a mile, but the strenght of pg-position is much closer to Euroleague nowadays, still better, but the difference on other positions is not even comparable, that is a fact... Btw. Williams was playing in Europe last year...

Yes put Paul or Williams in a team like Australia and they will shread those guards from Spain and Russia. Would their team win, not so sure but I'll bet they will put up better numbers.

Seriously, who cares about players who went to play in Europe. Even Jordan Farmar made everyone step slow over there. I'm sure Lawson could have adjusted too if that is his mean to his ends just like Jeremy Pargo. PG position is not much closer btw. Some players just takes time to adjust. And because Europe can play full zone, most of the ones who can't guard a lick does not get exposed.

 

[NorCal2]

NBA players just don't bother playing defense anymore - it's as simple as that realy.
Even this USA team was only determined to score as much as possible, letting their opponents to score at will too and simply relying on their individual prowess to win games. NBA rules also favour offensive players over the defensive ones so much that defending athletic perimeter guards has become almost an impossible task.

I think your second point- that NBA rules favor offensive players over defensive ones- is the key point. NBA players on good teams play the best defense in the world, IMO. The amount of scouting and the incredible technology along with the tactics of the top defensive coaches isn't matched anywhere in the world. There are some teams that don't have accountability in their organization and it shows on the basketball court in many ways, especially on the defensive end- teams like my Sacramento Kings unfortunately. They don't play any defense. However, like I said, I think a great majority of the top tier teams and even many of the mid-tier teams play great defense, its just that the defensive 3 second rule, the hand check rule, etc. make it very difficult to guard these athletic players.

 

[madmax2]

Have you ever considered the wild concept that in fiba it only appears that their playing great defense because the offensive abilities are so limited? Probably not?

no, because if that was the case, the great Lithuanian NT and it's role players wouldn't have scored over 90 points against your "super" defenders
Is it really so hard to admit that you win games only thanks to your offensive talent?

 

[durden_tyler2]

Not a Dream Teamish dominating performance in the Final basically because Spain came to play and US almost folded (saved again by LeBron and Durant). Nonetheless, a gold medal is a gold medal.

Thank you Spain for showing this American team is beatable, and that they are not the 1992 Team USA quality And thank you LeBron and Durant for bringing out the best in the crucial parts of this games. Safe to say, this generation will enjoy your rivalry for the next 5-7 years.

 

[usagre2]

no, because if that was the case, the great Lithuanian NT and it's role players wouldn't have scored over 90 points against your "super" defenders
Is it really so hard to admit that you win games only thanks to your offensive talent?

I am not disagreeing with you on that point. I said it earlier that in this tournament there was no incentive to play d because the us was basically able to score at will. But if by some chance they would be stifled offensively then you would see them focus on the defensive end to greater degree. Basically coming done to a crunch time scenario I would till take them defensively over any other team.

 

[usagre2]

Not a Dream Teamish dominating performance in the Final basically because Spain came to play and US almost folded (saved again by LeBron and Durant). Nonetheless, a gold medal is a gold medal.

Thank you Spain for showing this American team is beatable, and that they are not the 1992 Team USA quality And thank you LeBron and Durant for bringing out the best in the crucial parts of this games. Safe to say, this generation will enjoy your rivalry for the next 5-7 years.

It is amazing how we can call a team beatable when they never lost or even trailed late in any of the games.

 

[Federoy2]

no, because if that was the case, the great Lithuanian NT and it's role players wouldn't have scored over 90 points against your "super" defenders
Is it really so hard to admit that you win games only thanks to your offensive talent?

It's not hard for me to admit that at all. Our offense is what won us the gold medal....period. Russia in my mind was the best defensive team in the tournament. They just didn't have enough weapons on offense to make an impact beyond what the Spanish brought to the table.

In future tournaments, the US has got to address the defensive principals that apply to FIBA basketball. As NorCal pointed out, NBA defenses are sound, but with the restrictive defensive rules that the league has in place it makes it difficult to transition from the NBA to FIBA rules in just three short weeks with limited practice time. How future USA coaching staffs address this problem will be an interesting challenge.

 

[usagre2]

It's not hard for me to admit that at all. Our offense is what won us the gold medal....period. Russia in my mind was the best defensive team in the tournament. They just didn't have enough weapons on offense to make an impact beyond what the Spanish brought to the table.

In future tournaments, the US has got to address the defensive principals that apply to FIBA basketball. As NorCal pointed out, NBA defenses are sound, but with the restrictive defensive rules that the league has in place makes it difficult to transition from the NBA to FIBA rules in just three short weeks with limited practice time. How future USA coaching staffs address this problem will be an interesting challenge.

What abou the 2010 team? They didn't have the fire power so they focused on defense? How did that work out?

 

[Chopin2]

Yes put Paul or Williams in a team like Australia and they will shread those guards from Spain and Russia. Would their team win, not so sure but I'll bet they will put up better numbers.

Seriously, who cares about players who went to play in Europe. Even Jordan Farmar made everyone step slow over there. I'm sure Lawson could have adjusted too if that is his mean to his ends just like Jeremy Pargo. PG position is not much closer btw. Some players just takes time to adjust. And because Europe can play full zone, most of the ones who can't guard a lick does not get exposed.

I am telling you it is and was closer last years, I follow both leagues very closely and that was what I discovered. But I think that on the other positions, the difference is actually becoming bigger. In my eyes of course.

 

[Chopin2]

You are completely lost. Point guard is actually the strongest it has been in the nba in a long time. And I am still waiting to hear from you on who these mysterious fiba point guards are that you think are better than Paul and Williams.

Please dont put words in my mouth, I did not say better, but I was wondering where do you get your claims from. On what basis? I was questioning your claim and still am. We have a conversation. Why do you think point guard is actually the strongest it has been in the nba in a long time? What are your arguments? What can you add to the discussion about pg-s that came from Europe and acceled in NBA last year? I could not imagine that happen on any other position in the NBA.
Names... Why do you want me to write names? You can compare pg-s that played both leagues. There are great players that did not go to NBA at all and are difference makers in Europe and Fiba basket...(are not suited for the different stile, while other that were worse in Europe play great in NBA) The great duo comes to my mind (DD, Papaloukas) and Huertas, even Teodosic has been a leader and clutch in Europe and FIBA basket and there are others... The playmakers are in my eyes by far the hardest position in FIBA basketball and Europe basketball...

There are different stiles of basketball, Rose is a great example. He could not do much in FIBA basketball in Turkey while Durant was nailing it and next year Rose became the MVP in the NBA. So, he should destroy everyone in Turkey by your logic, but he did not. Does that make him a less valuable player in the NBA? Certainly not, he is a great player and was rightgully named the best in the best league in the world. But some players can not translate their play to FIBA basketball that easily that you could be so 100% sure about your claims like you are (and it is the hardest for the pg-s)... Now I hope you understand what I wanted to discuss about...

Edit: Btw. I am done talking about pg-s, I already wrote too much about this topic.

 

[Federoy2]

Not a Dream Teamish dominating performance in the Final basically because Spain came to play and US almost folded (saved again by LeBron and Durant). Nonetheless, a gold medal is a gold medal.

Thank you Spain for showing this American team is beatable, and that they are not the 1992 Team USA quality And thank you LeBron and Durant for bringing out the best in the crucial parts of this games. Safe to say, this generation will enjoy your rivalry for the next 5-7 years.

I'm not sure if you've ever experienced what a pressure situation is like, but had the US lost they would've been kicked and punched by every major media outlet in the US not to mention the fans, their peers within the NBA, and the retired veterans. We take great pride in our basketball here, much like Brazil does in football or Canada does in ice hockey. It's a tremendous amount of strain to play under heavy expectations, going against a savvy team like Spain that could play loose because they weren't expected to give us trouble according to the so-called experts. No, this team is no where near the original Dream Team (the one and only), but in their own right, they played great basketball under the circumstances. Yeah, this team showed its vulnerabilities on several occasions, but the bottom line is they went undefeated against some very good teams to capture their second straight gold. Give them credit for what they've earned instead of thanking Spain for what they couldn't pull off.

 

[Federoy2]

What abou the 2010 team? They didn't have the fire power so they focused on defense? How did that work out?

It worked out to near defeats at the hands of Brazil and Russia as I recall (I vividly remember Durant single-handedly saving the US in the Russia game). The 2010 team had a different identity with different personale, and although the defense was solid, it wasn't fundamentally sound team defense. 2010, like most USNT, relied on aggressive man-to-man coverage with switches on high pick & roll and playing the passing lines for steals. It's the same defensive scheme that the US has been using since the original Dream Team, only it's gotten less effective as other countries have figured out how to expose us defensively. You can't tell me after what we saw in London that we can continue with this offense-first mentality and be successful in future competitions. We've got to impliment some defensive strategies on a team level and not rely only on individual defense to disrupt the opposing team.

 

[durden_tyler2]

I'm not sure if you've ever experienced what a pressure situation is like, but had the US lost they would've been kicked and punched by every major media outlet in the US not to mention the fans, their peers within the NBA, and the retired veterans. We take great pride in our basketball here, much like Brazil does in football or Canada does in ice hockey. It's a tremendous amount of strain to play under heavy expectations, going against a savvy team like Spain that could play loose because they weren't expected to give us trouble according to the so-called experts. No, this team is no where near the original Dream Team (the one and only), but in their own right, they played great basketball under the circumstances. Yeah, this team showed its vulnerabilities on several occasions, but the bottom line is they went undefeated against some very good teams to capture their second straight gold. Give them credit for what they've earned instead of thanking Spain for what they couldn't pull off.

The standard was the original Dream Team. They did not live up to that standard, simple as that. Did they do a great job in getting the gold this year? Yes, yes and yes but not enough to draw comparisons to that special team.

 

[L8DBACK2]

I'm not sure if you've ever experienced what a pressure situation is like, but had the US lost they would've been kicked and punched by every major media outlet in the US not to mention the fans, their peers within the NBA, and the retired veterans. We take great pride in our basketball here, much like Brazil does in football or Canada does in ice hockey. It's a tremendous amount of strain to play under heavy expectations, going against a savvy team like Spain that could play loose because they weren't expected to give us trouble according to the so-called experts. No, this team is no where near the original Dream Team (the one and only), but in their own right, they played great basketball under the circumstances. Yeah, this team showed its vulnerabilities on several occasions, but the bottom line is they went undefeated against some very good teams to capture their second straight gold. Give them credit for what they've earned instead of thanking Spain for what they couldn't pull off.

If this was a blowout by the USA, some people would say it was boring, not worth watching. Can't satisfy everyone I guess. I love those down to the wire games especially in the finals. Given the fact that this USA team was a small team stacked with shooters. Due to injuries, the USA had to play who they got. This was a well rounded team. They accomplished what they had to do. Congrats to the Spanish Team for giving a hell of a game / scare to the USA. My congrats also to the USA Team for their run to the Gold Medal, undefeated!

 

[usagre2]

It worked out to near defeats at the hands of Brazil and Russia as I recall (I vividly remember Durant single-handedly saving the US in the Russia game). The 2010 team had a different identity with different personale, and although the defense was solid, it wasn't fundamentally sound team defense. 2010, like most USNT, relied on aggressive man-to-man coverage with switches on high pick & roll and playing the passing lines for steals. It's the same defensive scheme that the US has been using since the original Dream Team, only it's gotten less effective as other countries have figured out how to expose us defensively. You can't tell me after what we saw in London that we can continue with this offense-first mentality and be successful in future competitions. We've got to impliment some defensive strategies on a team level and not rely only on individual defense to disrupt the opposing team.

I completely disagree, the streak is at 50 straight games, keep sending the best players and you can not lose. If it ain't broke don't fix it. I am not gonna change my principles if I am team USA because of a couple of close games, I mean the other guys are trying too they are not complete stiffs

 

[usagre2]

Please dont put words in my mouth, I did not say better, but I was wondering where do you get your claims from. On what basis? I was questioning your claim and still am. We have a conversation. Why do you think point guard is actually the strongest it has been in the nba in a long time? What are your arguments? What can you add to the discussion about pg-s that came from Europe and acceled in NBA last year? I could not imagine that happen on any other position in the NBA.
Names... Why do you want me to write names? You can compare pg-s that played both leagues. There are great players that did not go to NBA at all and are difference makers in Europe and Fiba basket...(are not suited for the different stile, while other that were worse in Europe play great in NBA) The great duo comes to my mind (DD, Papaloukas) and Huertas, even Teodosic has been a leader and clutch in Europe and FIBA basket and there are others... The playmakers are in my eyes by far the hardest position in FIBA basketball and Europe basketball...

There are different stiles of basketball, Rose is a great example. He could not do much in FIBA basketball in Turkey while Durant was nailing it and next year Rose became the MVP in the NBA. So, he should destroy everyone in Turkey by your logic, but he did not. Does that make him a less valuable player in the NBA? Certainly not, he is a great player and was rightgully named the best in the best league in the world. But some players can not translate their play to FIBA basketball that easily that you could be so 100% sure about your claims like you are (and it is the hardest for the pg-s)... Now I hope you understand what I wanted to discuss about...

Edit: Btw. I am done talking about pg-s, I already wrote too much about this topic.

Ok you win I would rather have dd or papalukas on my team than Derrick rose

 

[L8DBACK2]

Celebration!

 

[Raze Lupin2]

That is an awesome pic!

 

[NorCal2]

I completely disagree, the streak is at 50 straight games, keep sending the best players and you can not lose. If it ain't broke don't fix it. I am not gonna change my principles if I am team USA because of a couple of close games, I mean the other guys are trying too they are not complete stiffs

Trying to improve defensive schemes is not 'changing your principles'. Its staying ahead of the game. Every great coach (or in fact person that is great at anything) is always looking to improve at what they do.

YOu say 'keep sending the best players and you cannot lose' (which is too much of a blanket statement but that's not my point)........but what happens in 2014 when we don't send the best players and the margin for error and losses is much smaller? My point is, we've got to be prepared. We have mounds of data and film now and, come time before 2014 I expect our staff to be analyzing it and for us to make changes in order to improve.

 

[CHBB2]

I do think this USA team is up there with the '92, '96 and '08 teams as the best teams we've ever put on the court. I wish this team or the '08 team could have played against the Argentina, Lithuania, Greece and Spanish squads from the mid 2000s, those games would have been epic!

Nobody is anywhere near being on par with '92. Larry Bird is one of the best shooters ever. Okay, Durant is too so I'll give you that. Jordan has no equal though. Barkley has no equal. David Robinson has no equal. Patrick Ewing you could compare Dwight Howard, Scottie Pippen defensively you could compare Iguodala sure but not offensively. LeBron somewhat compares to Magic though Magic was a much more well-rounded offensive player. Karl Malone has no equal. Clyde Drexler you could say Kobe is better than so that's two for 2012. None of the PGs are on Stockton's level though. There's only one of those and he's from Canada. '92 would steamroll every single team but '92.

I noticed this year that some pg-s that went from Europe to the NBA (like Rubio, Lawson, Dragic...) had unreal statistics. I was wondering why is that so I came to the conclusion that the pg-spot is by far the weakest in the NBA. Maybe it is because there are too many games in the season and most games are meaningless more or less run&gun games, I dont know, still havent found an answer. Forwards, scorers and centers in the NBA are truly the best in the world by a mile, but the strenght of pg-position is much closer to Euroleague nowadays, still better, but the difference on other positions is not even comparable, that is a fact... Btw. Williams was playing in Europe last year...

They don't defend point guards unless they're major offensive players. Most point guards or guards in general can't defend anybody these days due to a lack of effort and due to laziness and entitlement and attitude issues. Another thing is that a lot of point guards these days don't pass until they know they'll get an assist, which inflates their stats. Still, guys like Chris Paul are the real deal.

Deron only played in Turkey because of the lockout, and Lawson didn't come from Europe either. He was a big time player at UNC.

Well statistics are generally 'higher' in the NBA because of the pace and length of the games of course. You need to look at advanced statistics to see if players are actually playing better in the NBA than in Europe.

Or you could just actually watch the games and rely on your basketball knowledge. No type of stat ever tells the whole story.

You are completely lost. Point guard is actually the strongest it has been in the nba in a long time.

No, it isn't. It's the weakest it's been in a long time.

NBA players just don't bother playing defense anymore - it's as simple as that realy.
Even this USA team was only determined to score as much as possible, letting their opponents to score at will too and simply relying on their individual prowess to win games. NBA rules also favour offensive players over the defensive ones so much that defending athletic perimeter guards has become almost an impossible task.

True.

Have you ever considered the wild concept that in fiba it only appears that their playing great defense because the offensive abilities are so limited? Probably not?

That's not the case.

What abou the 2010 team? They didn't have the fire power so they focused on defense? How did that work out?

They had plenty of firepower. They had some of the best young players in the NBA and some key role players.

I am telling you it is and was closer last years, I follow both leagues very closely and that was what I discovered. But I think that on the other positions, the difference is actually becoming bigger. In my eyes of course.

You're right about the second part. Here's the thing though, players get drafted based on size and athleticism first and foremost these days. It's sad but true. The only way a guy who is considered "too short" gets drafted is if he comes from International basketball.

It worked out to near defeats at the hands of Brazil and Russia as I recall (I vividly remember Durant single-handedly saving the US in the Russia game). The 2010 team had a different identity with different personale, and although the defense was solid, it wasn't fundamentally sound team defense. 2010, like most USNT, relied on aggressive man-to-man coverage with switches on high pick & roll and playing the passing lines for steals. It's the same defensive scheme that the US has been using since the original Dream Team, only it's gotten less effective as other countries have figured out how to expose us defensively. You can't tell me after what we saw in London that we can continue with this offense-first mentality and be successful in future competitions. We've got to impliment some defensive strategies on a team level and not rely only on individual defense to disrupt the opposing team.

What are you talking about? Durant never single-handedly saved that team once. It was because of the unselfish, all out play of guys like Iguodala and Love and Odom and even the young stars and up and comers that Durant was allowed to score as much as he did. Their only problems in the 2010 WC were when the younger players didn't play smart, and most of them were inconsistent. That's why some of the games were close.