Fiba World Cup 2023 Philippines

[DAdmiral]

i hope someone here posts the record of NZ against Euro and Latin American teams, my hunch is that its just a few notches above Asian teams. NZ, though better than Asia’s best, is not on the same tier as mid level Euro teams

Based on purely world cup performance (not level of talent or performance outside world cup ) indeed over the last decade NZL results are similar to 2nd tier Euro teams and 2nd tier Americas teams . The record results are all there. (Look below)

2010 - NZ beat Canada and France
2014 , NZ beat Ukraine and Finland
​​​2019 , NZ beat Turkey and Montenegro

This is obviously not the case for any Asian team..(winless vs Euro since 2010)

BTW I keep insisting thst I actually agree NZL is the preference beatable team over Finalnd and DR , so where is bias there ? Yes Gilas is right to prefer Nz , Just being objective. (This is not the question, it's who do the other teams prefer)

What is not objective is to say Asian teams in Pot 1 and pot 5 are not the unanimous preferred team to be part of one's group for the draw (obviously only if allowed by procedure, note for groups not with Philippines selected of course Iran is allowed to join). Note 6 teams from pot 1,3, 7 not joining Philippines, can have Iran as their group mate. Obviously all those 6 teams would prefer Iran, all teams in Pot 1 not named Gilas prefer to play Iran from Pot 5.

This is all common known opinion ( nothing to argue really)

 

[DAdmiral]

If NZ is part of Eurobasket we may never see them again in both World basketball and Olympics, not even with Adams playing (not even close and not arguable) Lol
​

I agree..
which isn't what is being argued here..

Using the.logic it's also true if any Asian team played in Oceania where 1 Olympic spot is only available, NO Asian team would make the Olympics this century

 

[DAdmiral]

One of the things to realize is if Philippines does not finish top 2 in it's group it is unlikely to have a dream match up vs the US ..

 

[paolylo2]

It's laughable how some (not all) still can't wrap their head around the draw procedures. Ang linaw na nga eh. If you're still debating whether or not we could draw NZ, bahala kayo diyan.

I'm sticking to my gut that just as China rigged their draw in 2019 to get the weakest teams possible, the SBP will do the same. The problem is if it comes down to either Angola or the Ivory Coast, both had a relatively easy time in qualifying from Africa where they all have improved since then (remember the Nigeran team that beat Team USA? they didn't even qualify).

If I were the SBP, I'd find a way to mark the balls for Brazil and Finland as opposed to Greece and DR. Brazil barely made it through qualifying in a campaign where they lost to Colombia and got blown the f out by Mexico. Finland even without Markkanen is your prototype European squad, they have several options for naturalized players but all of them are even older than Brownlee meaning they went for stability and familiarity than some young shot-creator who can complement Markkanen. That said, we can match up better with that compared to the DR who are just way too athletic and cohesive even without K.A.T. Forget Greece. Pustahan, magpapa-autograph mga hindot kay Giannis.​ Personally, I don't want Gilas to face NZ just because they are more familiar with Gilas than all those other teams. *edit also, Gilas don't have anything that NZ can counter. We saw glimpses of their first team and how they rendered our foreign-based players like Kiefer, Dwight and RJ Abarrientos useless.

 

[DAdmiral]

Actually have no problem if some prefer for Gilas to play NZL rather than Finland or DR. (If they can be grouped together is dependent on what is the definition of same zone , is Asia Pacific same zone or is Oceania considered a separate zone ?, rather wait for clarity. It's kind of weird if the only team NZ can't be grouped with is Australia, especially knowing all of Asia Pacific zone just went to the same qualifiers, honestly it makes the rule kind of purposeless if Oceania is separate with just 2 teams)

Now back to preferring NZ , to me be careful what you ask for , do not assume that simply because NZ is less talented than DR and Finland that they will be weaker . It reminds me of how NZ was under estimated in the 2016 OQT in Manila simply cause of lack of known names or firepower. From the the perspective of someone who was in the staff of that NZ team , Gilas just has to many holes they can't match up with NZ . In a sense Gilas guard strength with lack of size and athleticism is a bad match up. Especially for a team like NZ thst is super familiar of these known weaknesses of Gilas and can fully exploit them. A team like Finland isn't familiar with exploiting these weaknesses, cause they seldom have a physical and athleticism advantage vs their opponents in Europe. NZ is very familiar. , their eyes open up when they see these disadvantages anyway it's just my perspective, I'm not saying I'm right. Just that do not underestimate this difference factor

 

[hmbopbaduwap]

SMC takeover of SBP post World Cup?

https://www.facebook.com/6645186602...pUunmyqkrcQ886Es3eL3nvsnL8rl/?mibextid=Nif5oz

 

[IPC2]

SBP will partner with SMC for the WC.

https://www.facebook.com/Philippine...kStGpNDmwryc2wnk2HRSZPC4VmsS9bwipaMyhEJY7MuNl

As if we don't already know that. They've been at it for months.

 

[carmelo7]

Personally I would like to play Finland because we can meet NZ during FIBA Asia and we've seen DR although not with KAT.

 

[mojo13]

It's laughable how some (not all) still can't wrap their head around the draw procedures. Ang linaw na nga eh. If you're still debating whether or not we could draw NZ, bahala kayo diyan.

I'm sticking to my gut that just as China rigged their draw in 2019 to get the weakest teams possible, the SBP will do the same. The problem is if it comes down to either Angola or the Ivory Coast, both had a relatively easy time in qualifying from Africa where they all have improved since then (remember the Nigeran team that beat Team USA? they didn't even qualify).

If I were the SBP, I'd find a way to mark the balls for Brazil and Finland as opposed to Greece and DR. Brazil barely made it through qualifying in a campaign where they lost to Colombia and got blown the f out by Mexico. Finland even without Markkanen is your prototype European squad, they have several options for naturalized players but all of them are even older than Brownlee meaning they went for stability and familiarity than some young shot-creator who can complement Markkanen. That said, we can match up better with that compared to the DR who are just way too athletic and cohesive even without K.A.T. Forget Greece. Pustahan, magpapa-autograph mga hindot kay Giannis.​ Personally, I don't want Gilas to face NZ just because they are more familiar with Gilas than all those other teams. *edit also, Gilas don't have anything that NZ can counter. We saw glimpses of their first team and how they rendered our foreign-based players like Kiefer, Dwight and RJ Abarrientos useless.

PHI can not draw Brazil.
Brazil will be in Spain's group no matter what. Watch the FIBA draw video. 2:13 mark.

They state the Pot 3 European teams CAN NOT be drawn with Spain (no explaination why). Since there are three Euro teams in Pot 3 and only Brazil left, then Brazil must be with Spain.

 

[mojo13]

Actually have no problem if some prefer for Gilas to play NZL rather than Finland or DR. (If they can be grouped together is dependent on what is the definition of same zone , is Asia Pacific same zone or is Oceania considered a separate zone ?, rather wait for clarity. It's kind of weird if the only team NZ can't be grouped with is Australia, especially knowing all of Asia Pacific zone just went to the same qualifiers, honestly it makes the rule kind of purposeless if Oceania is separate with just 2 teams)

Now back to preferring NZ , to me be careful what you ask for , do not assume that simply because NZ is less talented than DR and Finland that they will be weaker . It reminds me of how NZ was under estimated in the 2016 OQT in Manila simply cause of lack of known names or firepower. From the the perspective of someone who was in the staff of that NZ team , Gilas just has to many holes they can't match up with NZ . In a sense Gilas guard strength with lack of size and athleticism is a bad match up. Especially for a team like NZ thst is super familiar of these known weaknesses of Gilas and can fully exploit them. A team like Finland isn't familiar with exploiting these weaknesses, cause they seldom have a physical and athleticism advantage vs their opponents in Europe. NZ is very familiar. , their eyes open up when they see these disadvantages anyway it's just my perspective, I'm not saying I'm right. Just that do not underestimate this difference factor

AUS/NZL are considered Oceania for geographical balancing purposes.
Watch the FIBA draw video. It's all there and I laid out the draw possbilites above.

FIBA says in the video that NZL can not be drawn with Australia (no mention of other Asian teams) and Asian teams can not be drawn wth other Asian teams.

 

[Giannis34GOD2]

It's laughable how some (not all) still can't wrap their head around the draw procedures. Ang linaw na nga eh. If you're still debating whether or not we could draw NZ, bahala kayo diyan.

I'm sticking to my gut that just as China rigged their draw in 2019 to get the weakest teams possible, the SBP will do the same. The problem is if it comes down to either Angola or the Ivory Coast, both had a relatively easy time in qualifying from Africa where they all have improved since then (remember the Nigeran team that beat Team USA? they didn't even qualify).

If I were the SBP, I'd find a way to mark the balls for Brazil and Finland as opposed to Greece and DR. Brazil barely made it through qualifying in a campaign where they lost to Colombia and got blown the f out by Mexico. Finland even without Markkanen is your prototype European squad, they have several options for naturalized players but all of them are even older than Brownlee meaning they went for stability and familiarity than some young shot-creator who can complement Markkanen. That said, we can match up better with that compared to the DR who are just way too athletic and cohesive even without K.A.T. Forget Greece. Pustahan, magpapa-autograph mga hindot kay Giannis.​ Personally, I don't want Gilas to face NZ just because they are more familiar with Gilas than all those other teams. *edit also, Gilas don't have anything that NZ can counter. We saw glimpses of their first team and how they rendered our foreign-based players like Kiefer, Dwight and RJ Abarrientos useless.

Sorry bro, Brazil can't be group by PHL because they will be grouped with Spain automatically..... So no chance on that... That's is also the reason NZL should be best option... I don't know who among PHL players can match Markannen 1 on 1? He having his best season this year w/ Jazz... they beat tough teams such as Croatia and Germany... While PHL knows already NZL playstyle... It will boil out in preparation.... If teams like Jordan and Lebanon can match up against NZL, Then why not PHL?

 

[Giannis34GOD2]

Personally I would like to play Finland because we can meet NZ during FIBA Asia and we've seen DR although not with KAT.

Then why not NZL? If familiarity as concerned then NZL should be the best option... It's hard to choose Finland, who make it to the top 8 in Eurobasket last year, they give Spain hard time before the later winning the game.... Nothing against NZL... But Greek, German and Italian basketball fans in every social media corners doesn't want Finland or DR as their 1st round opponents... They know how they capable on giving those some basketball teams a hard time... But they are comfortable w/ NZL... Sure, Iran is the best option, But they also thinking the other groupmates that Iran could be their in same group... Iran's only possible opponent are USA, Spain and Australia... Those teams are very dangerous opponents for them.... Not the same if they group w/ PHL and NZL....

 

[Giannis34GOD2]

PHI can not draw Brazil.
Brazil will be in Spain's group no matter what. Watch the FIBA draw video. 2:13 mark.

They state the Pot 3 European teams CAN NOT be drawn with Spain (no explaination why). Since there are three Euro teams in Pot 3 and only Brazil left, then Brazil must be with Spain.

I think the reason is that Spain is the top seed team... So it means they give Spain an advantage to avoid 3 tough European teams... Any sports event, they always give top seed a leeway to choose their preferred destination...

 

[Giannis34GOD2]

Based on purely world cup performance (not level of talent or performance outside world cup ) indeed over the last decade NZL results are similar to 2nd tier Euro teams and 2nd tier Americas teams . The record results are all there. (Look below)

2010 - NZ beat Canada and France
2014 , NZ beat Ukraine and Finland
​​​2019 , NZ beat Turkey and Montenegro

This is obviously not the case for any Asian team..(winless vs Euro since 2010)

BTW I keep insisting thst I actually agree NZL is the preference beatable team over Finalnd and DR , so where is bias there ? Yes Gilas is right to prefer Nz , Just being objective. (This is not the question, it's who do the other teams prefer)

What is not objective is to say Asian teams in Pot 1 and pot 5 are not the unanimous preferred team to be part of one's group for the draw (obviously only if allowed by procedure, note for groups not with Philippines selected of course Iran is allowed to join). Note 6 teams from pot 1,3, 7 not joining Philippines, can have Iran as their group mate. Obviously all those 6 teams would prefer Iran, all teams in Pot 1 not named Gilas prefer to play Iran from Pot 5.

This is all common known opinion ( nothing to argue really)

POT 3 teams surely want Iran... But you didn't get the point why they want PHL and NZL as first choice.... Iran's possible groupmates are USA, Spain and Australia.... Any games are important and if they have a 3-0 advantage after the 1st round then they will have a numerous advantage going to 2nd round since the records are carry over... They can sure win vs Iran, But they can win against USA, Spain and Australia? If they want to make it to the playoff round, every game always count and having 3-0 is better than 2-1... If you are Greek, German or Italian fan, Who do you preferred group? Because it's impossible that PHL and IRI can be group... The best options are PHL's group and the least powerhouse opponent in POT 5 after Iran... And it will always say NZL over Finland and DR.... Just watch the procedure of draw and check it...

 

[DAdmiral]

it's flawed logic to be wishing for a combination of teams to join your group ( e.g. Philippines and NZ) , the reason why is even if 1 team per pot 3 and 7 is drawn grouped with Philippines , that means there are still 3 other (non Asian) teams each for Pot 1, 3 and 7 , that can be grouped with Iran in pot 5. So obviously the preference of the rest of the other teams (6) is Iran.

Your scenario is in on the condition that one of the 4 teams in pot 3, 5, and 7 is already grouped with Philippines ( that's just 25 % of the teams, the remaining 75 % can join Iran) . this is flawed thinking as 75 % of the remaining teams still can be grouped and prefer Iran

The simple assessment is the preference is to be with a group with a low performing world cup team ( normally Asian or African) that is seeded in the top pots ( 1 to 5) . Cause it essentially means that one of the top 2 supposedly ranked teams is actually weak. ( host , or like Iran that is ranked high cause it's in Asia)

There is a reason why the bottom 2 pots of 8 teams are all Asian and African teams. for any of the Asian teams to be in top seed pots 1 to 5 obviously is the winning lottery preferred draw by any team . No need to over complicate things, ... simply have as many Asian and African teams in your group the better. (at least 2 is ideal, which essentially means 2 beatable teams to advance to 2nd round)

 

[ja.he]

if you ask me, i will never ever overlooked teams from the Latin Americas. Yes, European teams might have the better system but Latin Americans have the better athletes.

 

[DAdmiral]

basically the winning (favorable 4 team group combination) is to have 1 team from Asia and 1 team from Africa. Now since all the teams in pot 7 and 8 are from Africa and Asia.
Any team that has another Asian or Africa team in the group from Pot 1, 5 and 6) has a favorable draw.

 

[Giannis34GOD2]

it's flawed logic to be wishing for a combination of teams to join your group ( e.g. Philippines and NZ) , the reason why is even if 1 team per pot 3 and 7 is drawn grouped with Philippines , that means there are still 3 other (non Asian) teams each for Pot 1, 3 and 7 , that can be grouped with Iran in pot 5. So obviously the preference is Iran.

Your scenario is in on the condition that one of the 4 teams in pot 3, 5, and 7 is already grouped with Philippines ( that's just 25 % of the teams, the remaining 75 % can join Iran) . this is flawed thinking as 75 % of the remaining teams still can be grouped and prefer Iran

The simple assessment is the preference is to be with a group with a low performing world cup team ( normally Asian or African) that is seeded in the top pots ( 1 to 5) . Cause it essentially means that one of the top 2 supposedly ranked teams is actually weak. ( host , or like Iran that is ranked high cause it's in Asia)

There is a reason why the bottom 2 pots of 8 teams are all Asian and African teams. for any of the Asian teams to be in top seed pots 1 to 5 obviously is the winning lottery preferred draw by any team . No need to over complicate things, ... simply have as many Asian and African teams in your group the better. (at least 2 is ideal, which essentially means 2 beatable teams to advance to 2nd round)

They not thinking only one possible match... They are thinking the whole tournament progress... Did you watch the procedures how it works? Sure, they want Iran... But other than that, It means they will also face either USA, Australia and Spain... Those 3 are favorites to win the title... I will give you a most logical explanation (Maybe you didn't watch the Draw procedures posted it already by FIBA).... Only for POTS 1,3,5,7:


POT 1 : PHL, USA, ESP, AUS
POT 3: GRE, ITA, GER, BRA
POT 5: IRI, FIN, DR, NZL
POT 7: JPN, JOR, ANG, CIV


FIBA stated that Spain will not be group in other 3 European teams in POT 3, It means guaranteed Spain and Brazil will be groupmates automatically, w/c also means DR can't be grouped with Spain because it has already Brazil as their Americas groupmates (Note: other continental zones teams can't be grouped except Europeans).. Spain only options in POT 5 are IRI, NZL and FIN (Some Groups will have 2 Europeans), Another thing is, If Spain were placed in Okinawa, that means they will also automatically group with Japan too in Group E... That means no Iran on Spain Group....

On USA side, they can't be grouped with Brazil and DR automatically because they are both in Americas zone, USA will have a possible brutal match against one of 3 teams in POT 3 and also a possibility have either NZL (For sure bro, your team doesn't want to be w/ USA), IRI and Finland, while because USA is already allocated in Manila, they will not face Japan in POT 7, If USA was placed with Iran, USA can't be grouped with Jordan (Jordan and Iran are both Asians) and only be grouped among Angola or CIV....

On Australia side, they have also same path as USA, Since Brazil already grouped with Spain, their POT 3 opponents also either 1 of 3 Euro POT 3 teams too, while Australia and NZL can't be grouped each other because both are Oceania teams... Their only opponents in POT 5 are IRI, FIN and DR... They have also similarities with Spain too, because both Spain and Australia can't be grouped in Manila, If Australia was the one will be draw in Okinawa, That means they will be automatically grouped with Japan, Also no chance to grouped with Iran too....

3 European POT 3 teams are in same path, Those 3 teams are wishing not be group with USA while they are OK with Australia (although very tough too) and especially Philippines (the worst POT 1 maybe in FIBA history books).. While all 3 European POT 3 teams can't be grouped with Spain... If one of those 3 Euro squads will be group in Group A (PHL), That means, they will have no chance to be grouped with Iran, Jordan and Japan... If one of Euro squads grouped with USA, They can't be grouped with DR in POT 5...

PHL meanwhile, their only possible opponents are one of 3 teams in Europe in POT 3, FIN, DR and NZL in POT 5 and Angola and CIV in POT 7... PHL might have some little advantage over Angola or CIV, But heavy underdogs vs POT 3 teams, and they also have a big disadvantage against POT 5 teams, But i'm sure, coach Chot praying that they want NZL as their POT 5 opponent than DR and Finland for obvious reasons

JPN is in danger scenario too, because they have no benefit like PHL even they are also co-hosting... JPN's possible POT 1 opponent are only Australia and Spain.. If they were drawn with Spain, it means they are also grouped with Brazil (see the reason above), It also means they have no chance to be grouped with IRI and DR.. Then only options are FIN and NZL.. While if they drawn with Australia, It means their POT 3 opponents are 1 of 3 Euro teams too and it also means they have no shot to be grouped w/ NZL in POT 5.... I think the only best scenario for Japan if they have atleast a shot to the 2nd round is with Spain, then Brazil and possibly NZL.... others are too tough for Japan....

IRI might have shot a win in group stages, As only PHI and IRI have only chance to have grouped with African teams (Also China too)... Because they don't be grouped with JOR and JPN.... It will be crucial when all Asian teams booted out early in 1st round, as they will haunt for Olympic qualification in Asia zone...

 

[DAdmiral]

You are over complicating things , you cannot over think things cause the difference between the teams in the top 2 pots is subjective marginal (excluding Gilas ) there are just tier levels of obvious difference in strength

Top tier : Top Euro and Americas and Australia
mid tier : 2nd tier Euro and Americas and NZ
lower tier: Asia and Africa

this is general , Tapos (period) , based on WC past performance and reputation . Past the 1st and 2nd round , you cannot overochestrate what will happen in terms of matchup , cause teams can always be upset .. the bottom line is the best scenario is 1st and crossover opponents are mostly lower tier and mid tier. better lower tier (for obvious reasons)

 

[sroth3839]

Best scenario:
PH
Italy
NZ
Cote D'Ivoire

Worst:
PH
Greece
Dominicana
Angola