FIBA ASIA Cup Qualifiers

[DAdmiral2]

Just want to understand. Tyler Harris is now a Qatari NT after playing for just 3 years or less in Qatar. He started in 2020 and already recognized as a Qatari in WASL in 2023. So why is Koume not recognized as a Filipino as he has played in Philippines longer
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I really wouldn't know for sure I'm not privy of exactly Tyler's case, do note thought the exception guidelines does not explicitly state the number of years residency and years playing domestically to be granted exception, neither is it residency and domestic play the only factors considered, also a factor is contribution towards the growth of the sport in Qatar ( in the SEC general's letter on cited as one of the factors on why Jawato was exempted included growth of the sport in Indonesia , which was important as co host of the 2023 World cup ( they wanted to give host a better chance of a competitive National team) , I reckon a similar gesture was given to Qatar as 2027 World cup host. This is of course speculation , as i'm not privy to the details of his case , like all of us. A similar gesture for the Philippines may not be merited , as Gilas is already a competitive team and Basketball as a sport in the Philippines is already very established and developed.

 

[zairex2]

I really wouldn't know for sure I'm not privy of exactly Tyler's case, do note thought the exception guidelines does not explicitly state the number of years residency and years playing domestically to be granted exception, neither is it residency and domestic play the only factors considered, also a factor is contribution towards the growth of the sport in Qatar ( in the SEC general's letter on cited as one of the factors on why Jawato was exempted included growth of the sport in Indonesia , which was important as co host of the 2023 World cup ( they wanted to give host a better chance of a competitive National team) , I reckon a similar gesture was given to Qatar as 2027 World cup host. This is of course speculation , as i'm not privy to the details of his case , like all of us. A similar gesture for the Philippines may not be merited , as Gilas is already a competitive team and Basketball as a sport in the Philippines is already very established and developed.

Then no one really knows here how the rule is implemented and Qatar has been atleast top 8 in some of the FIBA tournament so competitiveness is not really a reason .

So it's more about influence than actual rule. Our SBP then is doing its job unlike what I read here. We just don't have the money to pay FIBA.

Debating why someone is eligible or not is useless then.

 

[DAdmiral2]

I actually agree , like in any application (visa, job) knowing with certainty why one was approved and another wasn't as public knowledge, NO one really knows each specific case. (Unless you are privy of the whole story and details) we don't even know what documents were submitted to support ones case (Harris ).

All we know are the guidelines for exception and history of previous decisions made .

And clearly lineage entnicity ( not connection to a citizen) is NOT one to use by federation to get an exception as it's not one of the factors to cite to get a favorable decision ( it's clear in the guidelines and common immigration policies)

So yes , it's pointless to argue about Harris on why he was approved without knowing all the details of his case

 

[DAdmiral2]

BTW to add , we also don't even know if Koaume's exception is even being perued , so it's pointless to compare with a harris, as Harris case for exception was filed and pushed , not necessarily true for Kouame.

 

[Artek2]

Good Day Sir Art,

I totally agree on all degree if the topic is all about "Marital Rape with the legal wife". both sides had the rights to say "Oh Yes" and Oh No" for the meantime.

but the narrative is all about choosing the "allegiance" storyline.

if I heard and read something about "well there's a hanky panky thing" that surrounds why he or she choose that flag instead.

then I will also be one of those IBNers who will do the rumbling on all active threads coz it really ain't cool on all degree.

let's leave that part to FIBA Sec. Gen and let's attend to our own backyard instead.

because in reality, even though the recent games of our team feels good inside

the reality is our 4 and 5 spots are still vulnerable and glassy moving forward

thank goodness QMB statement about his ph docs since he is still a boy is a welcome development

but we really need more for that ceiling.

down the line there's a still possibility that someone a super talented kid(s) either legally adopted by a Filipino parent(s) or

a foreign family with their kids living domestically and without a single drop of Filipino blood suddenly pop up in the limelight

telling everyone " I want to be a legit Filipino, pls. help me process the docs needed and my parents agreed on everything".

that's one of the possible scenarios down the road.

it's really a case to case basis and no one will questioned us about "human trafficking" because we do it legally

the right thing.

There is a HUGE difference between the PH finding eligible HERITAGE players to what Qatar is doing which is basically importing minors with no heritage or relations to Qatar to field to their national team.

If Qatar was naturalizing and sourcing from their 85% foreigner residents, that's fair. Those people have ties to Qatar by being residents prior to being invited to be part of the National Team. But what Qatar is doing is fielding a team with no real relations to Qatar by heritage or by residency.

What needs to be done is for other countries to continuously call out Qatar until it becomes a bad PR for FIBA that will force them to close the loophole.
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[thatweirdguy2]

There is a HUGE difference between the PH finding eligible HERITAGE players to what Qatar is doing which is basically importing minors with no heritage or relations to Qatar to field to their national team.

If Qatar was naturalizing and sourcing from their 85% foreigner residents, that's fair. Those people have ties to Qatar by being residents prior to being invited to be part of the National Team. But what Qatar is doing is fielding a team with no real relations to Qatar by heritage or by residency.

What needs to be done is for other countries to continuously call out Qatar until it becomes a bad PR for FIBA that will force them to close the loophole.
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I was thinking they're going them certain privileges as they are hosting the WC in 27. This reeks of desperation. Qatar throwing their money around again trying to be relevant.

 

[Artek2]

I was thinking they're going them certain privileges as they are hosting the WC in 27. This reeks of desperation. Qatar throwing their money around again trying to be relevant.

They are not going anywhere with their style. Lol Maybe if they tapped into their foreign resident population, they'd see huge improvements

Did FIBA also impose the condition they did to Indonesia when they were co-host to automatically qualify? They rank lower than Indonesia and even Thailand, I believe.

 

[DAdmiral2]

There is a HUGE difference between the PH finding eligible HERITAGE players to what Qatar is doing which is basically importing minors with no heritage or relations to Qatar to field to their national team.

If Qatar was naturalizing and sourcing from their 85% foreigner residents, that's fair. Those people have ties to Qatar by being residents prior to being invited to be part of the National Team. But what Qatar is doing is fielding a team with no real relations to Qatar by heritage or by residency.

What needs to be done is for other countries to continuously call out Qatar until it becomes a bad PR for FIBA that will force them to close the loophole.
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I agree with this , it's the approach Qatar is taking while within the rules to game FIBA system (incliding loopholes) is contradictory to the essence of sports development.

As cited in earlier post , just highlighting the criteria FIBA has for exceptions that are designed based on a age and document based rule ( passport before 16 yrs old)

Just from a purely policy making perspective of what is likely to change and not . (AND NOT from what is right or wrong based on principles and Values). In is my opinion the rules won't change soon. Not unless Qatar starts becoming a world power and top Asian team, which don't think will happen in the next decade . Their approach hasn't worked so far and don't think it will have sustainable progress cause ultimately a team needs to produce steady pipeline of home development players to be successful

 

[thatweirdguy2]

They are not going anywhere with their style. Lol Maybe if they tapped into their foreign resident population, they'd see huge improvements

Did FIBA also impose the condition they did to Indonesia when they were co-host to automatically qualify? They rank lower than Indonesia and even Thailand, I believe.

I don't think it's sustainable. They just don't have the passion for basketball like some countries do and they're mainly a football country. They're just trying to make a big splash and one up other Arab nations. Heck we'll probably see them hosting NBA games/ wrestling/ boxing soon too.

Dunno about Indonesia and I don't think that's something that they would announce but they were probably given a lot of leeway too but they weren't able to capitalize. Qatar's got a deeper pocket so we better watch out.

 

[Artek2]

I agree with this , it's the approach Qatar is taking while within the rules to game FIBA system (incliding loopholes) is contradictory to the essence of sports development.

As cited in earlier post , just highlighting the criteria FIBA has for exceptions that are designed based on a age and document based rule ( passport before 16 yrs old)

Just from a purely policy making perspective of what is likely to change and not . (AND NOT from what is right or wrong based on principles and Values). In is my opinion the rules won't change soon. Not unless Qatar starts becoming a world power and top Asian team, which don't think will happen in the next decade . Their approach hasn't worked so far and don't think it will have sustainable progress cause ultimately a team needs to produce steady pipeline of home development players to be successful

Yeah. Even Indonesia and Thailand rank higher than them. Then again, what can one expect from a team that is nearly fully mercenaries? Aside from getting paid, they get "free training" and they can move on once Qatar decided they don't want them in the team anymore.

At least with heritage/resident players, there is attachment and pride in representing the country.

I think the way FIBA can close the loop hole is to require people who are not natural-born citizens to have lived at least 7 years prior to the age of 16 in the country they are representing. Qatar will really look bad by trying to import 9 y/os for their national team.

 

[Artek2]

I don't think it's sustainable. They just don't have the passion for basketball like some countries do and they're mainly a football country. They're just trying to make a big splash and one up other Arab nations. Heck we'll probably see them hosting NBA games/ wrestling/ boxing soon too.

Dunno about Indonesia and I don't think that's something that they would announce but they were probably given a lot of leeway too but they weren't able to capitalize. Qatar's got a deeper pocket so we better watch out.

TBF to Indonesia, FIBA should put the same condition on Qatar - make it to the top 8 in the Asia Cup. But then again, money talks.

 

[ARMIR2]

Just want to understand. Tyler Harris is now a Qatari NT after playing for just 3 years or less in Qatar. He started in 2020 and already recognized as a Qatari in WASL in 2023. So why is Koume not recognized as a Filipino as he has played in Philippines longer
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Politics in our side,they should have made him play in a local league to start the ball rolling as early as a year ago.

 

[FilWelsh2]

There is nothing we can do now. FIBA awarded hosting of 2027 WC because Qatar is the only country who is willing and who has resources when original winner of bidding, Argentina withdrawn. Let’s look at the positives. Gilas playing in Qatar is like playing home as there is a large expatriate Filipino workers over there. That’s includes at least 5 of my extended family … Our national federation SBP will definitely spend money much lower than if it is to be held in South America.

 

[DAdmiral2]

In hindsight , Qatar importation of athletes to represent its country is actually consistent with the way they generally do things ( importing most of their workforce , labourers , management etc in all areas of their work society) now while limited , surely there is bond to be some offspring of their long term residents who can be potential prospects. (this counts as roots to the country , child of a long time resident , just like if Brownlee and Black have son's born and raised in the Philippines

Speaking of recognizing long time residents and before we overly criticize FIBA rules, note long time residents Alex Clampton and Norman Black if they were able to secure Phil passports would be FIBA eligible as locals over never residents and zero parental connection to a citizen Clarkson and other Fil ams, that certainly is logical and fair , ( so who's fault is it , that residents Campton and Koaume are not eligible , while mercenaries with really in document perspective have little connection to the Philippines eligible , is it FIB's fault ? nope.

 

[JAMSKIE2]

Laughable and embarrassing is your own weird anti pinoy bias coming through. Again these guys would be eligible if FIFA not FIBA were making the rules. Its perfectly reasonable to dislike these rules and ask for change. Unless you think the biggest sports federation's rules are laughable and embarrassing.

The problem with DAdmiral/analyzed is that he doesn't value blood ties or descent (Or whatever we should call it. Damn, I'm not particular about semantics). He thinks that the case of Tyler Harris, who has no blood ties with Qatar (basta naglaro lang sa Qatar local pro league ng ilang taon), is just the same as the case of say a Chris Newsome (whose father is an American & his mother being a natural born Filipino therefore Chris Newsome has blood ties with Philippines). For as long as FIBA declares one player as eligible as a local player of a particular country, that's OK with DAdmiral.

The thing about DAdmiral is that he has a very liberated mindset that things like blood ties, race, athnicity, descent, ancestry hardly matters for him.

Perhaps he won't even mind that one day Qatar would be parading a team composed of Martians for as long as they obtained Qatari passports prior to their 16th birthday.

 

[Dotch2]

In hindsight , Qatar importation of athletes to represent its country is actually consistent with the way they generally do things ( importing most of their workforce , labourers , management etc in all areas of their work society) now while limited , surely there is bond to be some offspring of their long term residents who can be potential prospects. (this counts as roots to the country , child of a long time resident , just like if Brownlee and Black have son's born and raised in the Philippines

Speaking of recognizing long time residents and before we overly criticize FIBA rules, note long time residents Alex Clampton and Norman Black if they were able to secure Phil passports would be FIBA eligible as locals over never residents and zero parental connection to a citizen Clarkson and other Fil ams, that certainly is logical and fair , ( so who's fault is it , that residents Campton and Koaume are not eligible , while mercenaries with really in document perspective have little connection to the Philippines eligible , is it FIB's fault ? nope.

Mehhh, ...The great Manchester United legend Eric Cantona once said "Qatar is not a country of football. It's about money and the way they treated the people who built the stadiums, horrible." Which sums everything up. They buy everything with money, and display this public facade that theirs is a great sporting nation, filled with sports heroes. But in reality, their sports culture is manufactured and definitely inorganic.

 

[Artek2]

The problem with DAdmiral/analyzed is that he doesn't value blood ties or descent (Or whatever we should call it. Damn, I'm not particular about semantics). He thinks that the case of Tyler Harris, who has no blood ties with Qatar (basta naglaro lang sa Qatar local pro league ng ilang taon), is just the same as the case of say a Chris Newsome (whose father is an American & his mother being a natural born Filipino therefore Chris Newsome has blood ties with Philippines). For as long as FIBA declares one player as eligible as a local player of a particular country, that's OK with DAdmiral.

The thing about DAdmiral is that he has a very liberated mindset that things like blood ties, race, athnicity, descent, ancestry hardly matters for him.

Perhaps he won't even mind that one day Qatar would be parading a team composed of Martians for as long as they obtained Qatari passports prior to their 16th birthday.

How to we define "blood ties"? DNA/Genes
​ If that is the case, then we might as well consider Taiwanese Aboriginals, Chamorros, Malagasy people because they
​​​​​​share the same ancestral DNA as us. When they take 23andMe, they will come out as predominantly "Filipino and Austronesian" even if that connection was 4,000 years ago.

One has to remember that even by our constitution, being Filipino is not about "blood ties". It is really about the paper trail and if you have valid claims to PH citizenship if you can prove that at least one of your parent was a Filipino citizen upon your birth.

If for example one was already past the age of 18 when the dual nationality act was passed, and their parent lost their Philippine citizenship before they were born, the government will not recognize them as PH citizens. If the PH government does not recognize them as PH citizens due to not meeting the requirements to claim PH citizenship, "ancestral ties" is useless.

​​​​​The PH nationality laws is NOT like that of Israel or Ireland where if you can prove you have "Irish DNA" or "Jewish DNA" , you can claim citizenship in those countries even if you are 20 generations removed from those places. The Philippines defines Filipino not as ancestry or ethnicity or bloodline but solely on legal grounds.

If we are going to overemphasize "ancestry", "blood ties", "descent" we might as well tell people like Geo Chiu or Isaac Go to represent the PRC because that is the country they have "blood ties" to. After all their grandparents/parents are migrants from China not more than 100 years ago.

If Gabe Norwood's mother (who is "half" Filipino. Norwood is "one fourth") did not give birth to him when she was a minor, Gabe will not be able to claim PH citizenship unless he gets a sponsor that will bribe someone in the PSA or DFA. Small legal technicalities matter a lot.

Justin Brownlee can pretty much get his children to be part of a future Gilas team (granting that he processes their derivative PH citizenship while they are minors) and be considered a local despite the lack of "blood ties". His children's ties to the Philippines is not from "blood" or "ancestry" but from the fact that Brownlee is legally (aka paperwork) a Filipino. JBLs grandchildren can pretty be much as natural-born Filipinos as Oftana or Carl Tamayo despite the lack of what people refer to as "Filipino" blood which is just Austronesian ancestry (which is shared in large part of the Pacific World).

The problem with Qatar is not the lack of "blood ties" but lack of any kind of non-transactional relations between their players and the country they are representing. Harris neither has a parent who lived in Qatar nor did he prior to becoming a mercenary for them. If Qatar fielded someone whose both parents hailed from the Philippines but grew up in Qatar, that is a significant non-blood ties to Qatar.

It is important to note the origin and history of the term Filipino. The birth of the national consciousness of being a Filipino did not originate from the people we think as having "Filipino ancestry" (Austronesian peoples) but from the local-born Europeans. The first known person to refer to himself as a Filipino in a nationalistic way was not an "indio" but someone of European descent - Luis Rodriquez Varela. He was even known as El Conde Filipino.

The movie Gomburza shows the concept of Filipinoness very well - particularly during the conversation of Pedro Pelaez and Jose Burgos - and both of them are of European descent.
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[DAdmiral2]

The problem with DAdmiral/analyzed is that he doesn't value blood ties or descent (Or whatever we should call it. Damn, I'm not particular about semantics). He thinks that the case of Tyler Harris, who has no blood ties with Qatar (basta naglaro lang sa Qatar local pro league ng ilang taon), is just the same as the case of say a Chris Newsome (whose father is an American & his mother being a natural born Filipino therefore Chris Newsome has blood ties with Philippines). For as long as FIBA declares one player as eligible as a local player of a particular country, that's OK with DAdmiral.

The thing about DAdmiral is that he has a very liberated mindset that things like blood ties, race, athnicity, descent, ancestry hardly matters for him.

Perhaps he won't even mind that one day Qatar would be parading a team composed of Martians for as long as they obtained Qatari passports prior to their 16th birthday.

You're missing the point and misinterpreting what I'm saying , I'm simply accurately distinguishing what blood connection really means, to be precisely accurate it is verification of holding a document that one is connected (e.g. parent) to a person ,who is either a current/former Citizen or resident of the country. What it is NOT is mere connection to a person to someone of similar ethnicity (Malyay etc) , this is not semantics at all. But literally the basis of almost all Nations on recognizing who is a citizen or not. it's still based on a document . and in that case regardless of the difference in document to support one's connection Harris indeed has more of documented verifiable connection to Qatar than Jordan Clarson has to the Philippines.

BTW Newsome has a connection to a Philippine parent who is a former citizen , Harris does NOT, no one is saying the basis of Harris connection is via his parents

 

[DAdmiral2]

How to we define "blood ties"? DNA/Genes
​ If that is the case, then we might as well consider Taiwanese Aboriginals, Chamorros, Malagasy people because they
​​​​​​share the same ancestral DNA as us. When they take 23andMe, they will come out as predominantly "Filipino and Austronesian" even if that connection was 4,000 years ago.

One has to remember that even by our constitution, being Filipino is not about "blood ties". It is really about the paper trail and if you have valid claims to PH citizenship if you can prove that at least one of your parent was a Filipino citizen upon your birth.

If for example one was already past the age of 18 when the dual nationality act was passed, and their parent lost their Philippine citizenship before they were born, the government will not recognize them as PH citizens. If the PH government does not recognize them as PH citizens due to not meeting the requirements to claim PH citizenship, "ancestral ties" is useless.

​​​​​The PH nationality laws is NOT like that of Israel or Ireland where if you can prove you have "Irish DNA" or "Jewish DNA" , you can claim citizenship in those countries even if you are 20 generations removed from those places. The Philippines defines Filipino not as ancestry or ethnicity or bloodline but solely on legal grounds.

If we are going to overemphasize "ancestry", "blood ties", "descent" we might as well tell people like Geo Chiu or Isaac Go to represent the PRC because that is the country they have "blood ties" to. After all their grandparents/parents are migrants from China not more than 100 years ago.

If Gabe Norwood's mother (who is "half" Filipino. Norwood is "one fourth") did not give birth to him when she was a minor, Gabe will not be able to claim PH citizenship unless he gets a sponsor that will bribe someone in the PSA or DFA. Small legal technicalities matter a lot.

Justin Brownlee can pretty much get his children to be part of a future Gilas team (granting that he processes their derivative PH citizenship while they are minors) and be considered a local despite the lack of "blood ties". His children's ties to the Philippines is not from "blood" or "ancestry" but from the fact that Brownlee is legally (aka paperwork) a Filipino. JBLs grandchildren can pretty be much as natural-born Filipinos as Oftana or Carl Tamayo despite the lack of what people refer to as "Filipino" blood which is just Austronesian ancestry (which is shared in large part of the Pacific World).

The problem with Qatar is not the lack of "blood ties" but lack of any kind of non-transactional relations between their players and the country they are representing. Harris neither has a parent who lived in Qatar nor did he prior to becoming a mercenary for them. If Qatar fielded someone whose both parents hailed from the Philippines but grew up in Qatar, that is a significant non-blood ties to Qatar.

It is important to note the origin and history of the term Filipino. The birth of the national consciousness of being a Filipino did not originate from the people we think as having "Filipino ancestry" (Austronesian peoples) but from the local-born Europeans. The first known person to refer to himself as a Filipino in a nationalistic way was not an "indio" but someone of European descent - Luis Rodriquez Varela. He was even known as El Conde Filipino.

The movie Gomburza shows the concept of Filipinoness very well - particularly during the conversation of Pedro Pelaez and Jose Burgos - and both of them are of European descent.
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Thanks for explaining ,,, this is not mere semantics it really is the bottom line ( connection based on documentation)

 

[Artek2]

This is what happens when pop culture racializes being Filipino. Even our constitution does not even care about "ancestry", "race", "descent". Being Filipino to the government is being legally Filipino. As in Filipino in paper.

If Olivia Rodrigo were a male and a basketball athlete, she will not be able to claim PH citizenship given that she is 3rd generation and her father was born at the time when the PH did not recognize dual citizenship. The only way she could be a "PH citizen" is if they bribe the PSA or DFA like what Alice Guo did.

A good example is the Tony Labrusco fiasco. Everyone knows his parents were born Filipino. But there was a time that Tony only showed his US passport so the IO gave him the standard 30 day visa free visit, and Tony complained not getting a "balikbayan visa". Without travelling with a former PH citizen family, he cannot claim balikbayan visa. The immigration threatened him for his behavior and warned him that if they find out that he is working without a visa or proof of PH citizenship, they will deport or blacklist him.

Even our government does not care about "descent". It only cares if you can prove you are a citizen.