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janketa2
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The following discussion has been moved out of the EL signings topic into its own separate thread. - Levenspiel
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EverGreen2
Guest
The following discussion has been moved out of the EL signings topic into its own separate thread. - Levenspiel
I watched the 2nd half. Teo was a mastermind. Pretty much faultless. Yago had a good game too. Punter rubbish, Leday played little and in general there was no confidence. A lot of hesistance from Partizan in general when players were open. It's been a disaster of a season for them. I hope they get an EL wildcard. It would be such a shame to lose a 20K packed arena with a team that tries and has a budget for the play ins.
I watched the 2nd half. Teo was a mastermind. Pretty much faultless. Yago had a good game too. Punter rubbish, Leday played little and in general there was no confidence. A lot of hesistance from Partizan in general when players were open. It's been a disaster of a season for them. I hope they get an EL wildcard. It would be such a shame to lose a 20K packed arena with a team that tries and has a budget for the play ins.
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markkanen2
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So, you would rather see team from ACB league or team which developed young and unexpirienced players dropped out instead of them?
Look, if euroleague wants to have some kind of closed league I don't think that teams like Partizan have their place there, because then it's not even about money, it's about market. And Partizan money will be gone as soon as serbian government will be replaced or their government will get bored about european basketball.
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paspalj2
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We had this discussion a couple of months ago and you didn’t come up with a convincing example of a team that actually develops young players. Only cannon fodders like Alba that players use as a first step for the Euroleague.
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coinho2
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You still trying man.
I strongly dislike Partizan, but Serbia deserve to have 2 teams in Euroleague every season. Cause we are probably biggest basketball country in Europe, because passionate fans, because every week Belgrade can pack 40.000 people in Arena (when both is host), because of ethernal derby, and even we have solid budgets.
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Edgar3
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Every club which has state as the owner shouldn't be in the EL. Markkanen has the point. If EL wants to be closed league then they can't depend about things like that. If Vucic decides to stop funding these clubs and he will at some point then what? And by giving them year by year licence you are discouraging other clubs that have money and have private owners to seek that long term licence. Sure, fans are great but who can guarantee they will always be in the arena? You could see already at some games of Zvezda at the end of the season that Stark arena was at half capacity at best. Who says same wouldn't happen with Partizan if they didn't have chance for the play-in...I am old enough to remember Pionir being so empty that you could hear coaches and players talking when Zvezda or Partizan were playing there. Also with all these fans Zvezda can't do anything in the EL all these years. It's crazy...Partizan couldn't beat Bursa in the EC. It's not all about fans. As I said at the beggining of the summer, both Zvezda and Partizan have not good rosters. Partizan was way overrated based on the playoff series against the worst Real since Fener destroyed them 3-0 in 2016. And at the end it's all about profit. Belgrade and Serbia can't bring you that. Outside of EL fans you think anyone cares will Lazic, Davidovac, Caboclo or Nunnally have good performance in full Stark arena in the game for the play-in spot? Nope. But, someone outside EL fans will care if let say Dubai brings some really good players or London lets say. Even tho I am not for Dubai...and also about fans, no one can tell me Galatasaray or Besiktas don't have better fans...also I can't underatand how no one in Greece invests in Aris. The only club that has crazy fans that care more about basketball than football or at least similar. You have great project with Unicaja. If they get long term licence with all the money they would be pretty good with Malaga always being the basketball city. But they didn't get the licence and since they don't have Spanish goverment as the owner they decided BCL is better for them. Also Isreal deserves 2 more teams at least by everything. If you watch money, budgets, owners and gyms then Hapoel Jerusalem and Hapoel Tel Aviv deserves to be in the EL. Jerusalem's owner is son of Miriam Adelson(30 billions USD net worth), he loves basketball, ready to spend a lot...they have great fans, great arena...everything. Hapoel Tel Aviv almost the same except their arena is smaller but it's like Palau Blaugrana. EL has to decide. Either this league will be closed like the NBA or make some rules that 2 worst teams will be relegated in the EC and the 2 best from the EC promoted in the EL. But even then you would have cases like Bourg this year. Even if they won EC they wouldn't play EL. So it's stupid to even talk about this right now. I think both Serbian clubs will be in the EL next season but from 2025. there is no chance. Only if there will be 20 clubs let say. But even then Russian clubs will return at some point, Israeli teams will be added, Dubai...sheesh I even expect Saudi clubs at some point so I think in 2 years max there won't be even wildcard for the Aba league winner.
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janketa2
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I think one of Serbian clubs has to be regular participiant, not from ABA league but from Serbian league. 2nd team should be from Croatia, Montenegro or Slovenia. Not in this moment of course, but in future. I see only Buducnost invest in this moment and has some support from the state, but traditional basketball countries like Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia don't care at all. Arenas in Zagreb and Ljubljana are better then 90% El arenas, but rich people from that countries don't want to invest that much in the clubs. Cibona and Split have 5 EL titles with core of domestic players.
BTW I don't think ABA legue has future regarding mafia rules there. That what happened with Nunnaly is shame for basketball. I am the last one who will support him, it's known (to say it kindly) that I don't like him. But that what happened to him is shameful, he was brutal atacked it;s obvious, but at the end he was declared a bully. I still think that CZ is better team and thay would have win the serie anyway but this kind of provocation of players in the gym outside court shouldn't be tolerated.
BTW I don't think ABA legue has future regarding mafia rules there. That what happened with Nunnaly is shame for basketball. I am the last one who will support him, it's known (to say it kindly) that I don't like him. But that what happened to him is shameful, he was brutal atacked it;s obvious, but at the end he was declared a bully. I still think that CZ is better team and thay would have win the serie anyway but this kind of provocation of players in the gym outside court shouldn't be tolerated.
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Edgar3
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Croatia has one very rich guy that wanted to buy Cibona but the ex mayor and his corrupted friends didn't allow him to have 100% ownership so he decided to buy Cedevita. 1st in Zagreb then in Ljubljana. He invested nice money but didn't want to invest much more because there were no fans. If he was allowed to buy Cibona I am 100% sure that team would be in the EL now. No one cares about Cedevita in Zagreb and now he kinda gave up with big investements even in Ljubljana because there are no fans. Basketball doesn't exist in Croatia anymore in big cities except in Zadar. People only care about football. It's tragic but it what it is. And I agree about arenas. Zagreb has huge arena, Split also, even Zadar has bigger than some current EL teams but there is no one willing to buy these clubs because basketball is just not profitable and Croatian rich people will rather give 2M euros to Hajduk Split so they can buy 2 half professional foreign footballers than invest that in basketball club Split.
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markkanen2
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What about Zalgiris??
I mean, I'm not talking exactly about young players, but players who don't have euroleague expirience and need chance. Guys like Pangos or Walkup, now Evans or Hayes. Where will they play in euroleague if not in teams like Alba or Zalgiris?
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markkanen2
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You're saying that Serbia deserve two spots but Serbia don't have clubs except Partizan and Red Star so you're basically saying that Partizan and Red Star should always play in Euroleague.
You see, Spain has best league in continent by far. They have Baskonia, Unicaja, Valencia, Joventut, Murcia and so on and so on. And if someone say that they should have only one spot (Baskonia) and Serbia two, that's not something that I can understand. I mean, sure, Belgrade clubs have fans, but turkish or greek or israeli or italian or lithuanian or croatian clubs also have fans, they just don't receive any money from their state.
So, let's face it, serbian clubs are in euroleague because they can now fight for players like Nikola Mirotic. That's why they have so much fans now, because they receive more money from their state than ever before. But, imagine Partizan with some low level quality players and mediocre coach. Will they be interesting for euroleague, for fans, for media? I guess the answer is, obviously, no. So, first came money, then came fame, then came 20 thousands fans and wild cards every single year.
Lithuania is completely another subject.
For them, basketball is like state religion, even roman catholicism can't compare with that. Partizan is great club for sure, but Partizan is like Real Madrid or something, they share name with big football club and that's why they have so much fans.I mean, do you have basketball club with lots of fans which is not part of some football club system? You have Mega, but it's seems that they don't have any fans at all.
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coinho2
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You're saying that Serbia deserve two spots but Serbia don't have clubs except Partizan and Red Star so you're basically saying that Partizan and Red Star should always play in Euroleague.
You see, Spain has best league in continent by far. They have Baskonia, Unicaja, Valencia, Joventut, Murcia and so on and so on. And if someone say that they should have only one spot (Baskonia) and Serbia two, that's not something that I can understand. I mean, sure, they have fans, but turkish or greek or israeli or italian or lithuanian or croatian clubs also have fans, but they don't receive money from their state.
So, let's face it, serbian clubs are in euroleague because they can now fight for players like Nikola Mirotic. That's why they have so much fans now, because they receive more money from their state than ever before. But, imagine Partizan with some low level quality players and mediocre coach. Will they be interesting for euroleague, for fans, for media? I guess the answer is, obviously, no. So, first came money, then came fame, then came 20 thousands fans and wild cards every single year.
Lithuania is completely another subject.
I mean, do you have basketball club with lots of fans which is not part of some football club system? You have Mega, but it's seems that they don't fans at all.
I dont agree with you at all but okay, thats ur opinion.
About Mega, owner of this club is Misko Raznatovic, one of the biggest agente and that club is for young players to have a lot of minutes in ABA league and show quality and sign for other team, when Zvezda and Partizan dont play in Mega hall, at that game probably attend just families of players sadly.
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markkanen2
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But why is that if Serbia is so crazy about basketball, like you said? I mean, look at Philippines. They have no success in basketball whatsoever, their competition have no quality at all, they national team had some of the most devastating loses in history of basketball and yet, they are one of the biggest basketball fanatics in the world.
To have 20 thousand fans in your Arena is something. But show me passion and devotion to the team when that team don't have much hope to achieve something, and for that I can tip my hat (not that it means anything, but like you said, it's just one man opinion
).For me, Zalgiris fans are best in competition, but that's highly subjective thought.
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coinho2
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But why is that if Serbia is so crazy about basketball, like you said? I mean, look at Philippines. They have no success in basketball whatsoever, their competition have no quality at all, they national team had some of the most devastating loses in history of basketball and yet, they are one of the biggest basketball fanatics in the world.
To have 20 thousand fans in your Arena is something. But show me passion and devotion to the team when that team don't have much hope to achieve something, and for that I can tip my hat (not that it means anything, but like you said, it's just one man opinion
For me, Zalgiris fans are best in competition, but that's highly subjective thought.
Discuss about things with you is like discussion with housefly..
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markkanen2
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So, it's like this:
You: My club is so important, omg fans, omg we are so crazy, omg euroleague will rather fall apart than drop us, did I just said how much we are I-M-P-O-R-T-A-N-T, because we are!
Me: I don't agree at all, because of that and that.
You: You don't have any idea what are you talking about, like look at those guys, they agree with me too!
Me: Well, still don't agree because of this and that.
You: (Proceed to name calling)
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coinho2
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So, it's like this:
You: My club is so important, omg fans, omg we are so crazy, omg euroleague will rather fall apart than drop us, did I just said how much we are I-M-P-O-R-T-A-N-T, because we are!
Me: I don't agree at all, because of that and that.
You: You don't have any idea what are you talking about, like look at those guys, they agree with me too!
Me: Well, still don't agree because of this and that.
You: (Proceed to name calling)
I dont think i said that, on the contrary you are one who quote guys who have opinion that both Serbian clubs have to play EL and try to change their opinion so this one is pretty hypocrital, arent it?
And any argument with discussion with you would be pure stupidness because you repeating same bulshits over and over, but maybe you thinking the way: bulshits said 100 times will become the truth or idk but like i said it is sooooo boring to have any discussion with you.
Also, i never told that euroleague will fall off, but it seems that u like to spin and make stories u would like to be. Anyways ofc EL will not fall apart without Serbians, like any other nation there, we saw example for Russians.
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markkanen2
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Dude, just chill.
Did I personally offended you in some way? No, I was just repeating my position again and again, because, well, that's my opinion after all. I think that Edgar wrote quite great post some hour ago, and I will just say that I agree with his post from first to last word. 
If I may add something, you are free to say that my posts are utter nonsense or bullshit or any other word, but, in my opinion, you didn't provide any reasons why my posts are bullshit except that you didn't like what I wrote.I will continue to have some questions about basketball clubs who in past didn't have much money and all of sudden, they try to sign players like Nikola Mirotic. If that club got rich owner like Panathinaikos, it's much more undestandable.
And, by the way, congrats for winning another adriatic league. It was well deserved!
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Serbian_Layup2
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It's all about profit. LOL
Do you know that basically every Euroleague team can't make profit? Euroleague alone is not sustainable concept because there is no money in Euro basketball. Simple as that. Do you think they wouldn't have made a closed league if they had a reliable financial construction? Money argument is dead. No Eurolegue team is making a profit. It's not a freaking NBA. Any comparison is just coincidental. Look what is happening with Virtus all of a sudden, Valencia?? You will have this basically every year, so your money argument concerning Goverment's funding of Serbian clubs doesn't work. It seems almost every team is in financial problem no matter where they are getting their funding from.
Don't you worry about Partizan's fans. As long as they play in Euroleague Partizan will be a top watched team in competition. They made a bunch of money solely on season tickets sale. That is foundation on which Partizan can build and make a more independent financial construction. Especailly if they get license. And no, Partizan wasn't overrated, they played best basketball in Euroleage for a half season and had a great playoff series vs Real. This season, they lost 2 of the best players who, as it turned out, couldn't be replaced with Kaminsky and PJ Dozier. Make it or break it, the same goes for every other team. So I'm not sure what was your point. Every season speaks for itself. Remember Pao from last season (or better say more than a few last years) and their crowd? Yeah, not a sight to remember. But, luckily, things can change fast.
I would much rather watch Partizan and Zvezda over lifeless dead bodies such as Alba and Asvel (oh, how is that money argument working here? LoL. I bet both Partizan and Zvezda with or without State's funding can be more competetive than these 2 Eurocup level teams that happen to play in Eurolegue for years). It's strange how no one is questioning their existance in Eurolegue from multiple aspects, but seem very concerned about Serbian clubs. LOL
Euroleague can't offer money. They are acting like Dubai's bitches only to get some money from them. That alone shows you how desperate they are. LOL
The original producs that Eurolegue can offer are fans, passion, great derbies and love for the game. That's it. When you have NBA players coming to Eurolegue games, they don't talk about Euroleague's organization and great profits, they talk about fans, atmosphere, love for the game.
Money argument is becoming less and less important because there isn't enough money to make all of this sustainable. Therefore, there will always be uncertainties about this competition, clubs and their fundings.
Real, Barca, Bayern...are just basketball sections of their football clubs. They just spend the money they didn't earn. There is no profit. What would happen to them if at least for just one year their football clubs cut fundings?
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coinho2
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I never thought that i would say this, but i kinda agree with ur post..
If we all gonna think that way, lets lock league with 5 Emirates clubs, London, Paris, probably add some team from Luxemburg and lets play bball..
Common sense is that both Serbia clubs should be pernament memebers of Euroleague, with 5 or 35 million budgets. Also idk why people here hurt so much fact that Serbian clubs is finansied by state, i mean , we all know that basketball in Europe is not profitable sport and club in Serbia most likley will never be privatized so somebody (state) must help clubs to function, really dont know why that fact hurt some people here.
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Serbian_Layup2
Guest
I never thought that i would say this, but i kinda agree with ur post..
If we all gonna think that way, lets lock league with 5 Emirates clubs, London, Paris, probably add some team from Luxemburg and lets play bball..
Common sense is that both Serbia clubs should be pernament memebers of Euroleague, with 5 or 35 million budgets. Also idk why people here hurt so much fact that Serbian clubs is finansied by state, i mean , we all know that basketball in Europe is not profitable sport and club in Serbia most likley will never be privatized so somebody (state) must help clubs to function, really dont know why that fact hurt some people here.
Exactly. Let's do that and just kill all the things that make Euroleague watchable and amusing. I bet English fans are crazy about basketball. Luxemburg is known to be a basketball loving country with great fans. LOL
There are far greater aspects to consider than just money.
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paspalj2
Guest
What about Zalgiris??
It is true that Zalgiris plays youngsters maybe more than other teams but I think we have a different definition of “developing players”. Pangos going to Zalgiris at 23 is not a player to be developed. He just gets playing time. When I talk about development I mean the Birutis of this world.
For me, the league needs to be competitive. Now, how teams plan to do this, it’s up to them. If they can have a good mixture of seasoned players and a decent development program to incorporate younger players then so be it. But I will not say that the EL “needs” teams that are just willing to take youngsters and EC level players to give them a shot while they are permanently at the bottom of the table. That’s not competitive.