Club vs Country: Australia's Andrew Bogut in doubt for World Championships

[Franz2]

Exactly who are the NBA owners not allowing to play for their national teams? The Gasol brothers? Rudy Fernandez? Manu Ginobili? Tony Parker?

I should have used a better choice of wording.

I meant they are "highly opposed" to their international players playing. Of course, they can't do anything about it. But if they did have to power to do so, they would ban international play or make a stipulation in contracts.

 

[Federoy2]

If I'm not mistaken, they theoretically don't have the power to do that but for 13 or 14 players in the league, one of them being Ilgauskas. There's some kind of clause in his contract which allows them to forbid him to play for the national team, due to his history of injuries.

Whatever ... this topic has been debated to death. I would think that it would appear as a bit paradox to anyone that there is the ever re-occuring topic of foreigners (some of them quite average NBA players) playing for their national teams, how they're invested in and how they could hurt the franchise with their behaviour, but when a roster of the biggest NBA superstars is gathered to play in the Olympics, there's no resistance whatsoever.

Yeah, this topic has been beaten to death; something we can actually agree on.

Of course, publicly NBA owners paying big contracts to US stars on the national team are going to support the effort. Otherwise the media and fans would blast an owner for being "unpatroitic" for criticising a player's decision to represent his country; a decision that they can't legally prevent unless written into a contract. But privately, I'm sure some NBA owners aren't thrilled about the prospect of their big name star getting injuried or exhausted before the season begins. Hey, that's money talking, and we all know that in the wonderful world of capitalism money always has a seat at the head of the table.

I don't know where this non-sense is coming from that foreign nationals are being unfairly pressured into not playing for their national teams while their American counterparts aren't. Their has never been any evidence of that. That's more perception driving reality for whoever argues such ridiculousness. The only time I've heard of an owner/president explicitly or openly questioning a player's participation for their national team (other than Mark Cuban) is when they're injuried, as was the case in 2009 when Manu Ginobili had a serious ankle injury during the season and San Antonio didn't want him to play in the Tournament of the Americas. He agreed with his club and sat out for the summer.

 

[Federoy2]

If it was up to NBA owners Usa team would consist of streetballers.I don't think they give a damn about international competitions and Usa's results,i don't even think they watch these games.

I love your optimizism.

 

[robbe2]

I don't know where this non-sense is coming from that foreign nationals are being unfairly pressured into not playing for their national teams while their American counterparts aren't. Their has never been any evidence of that.

Yeah.

NBA Reminds Teams Not To Stop Players From Playing In International Competitions

The NBA reminded the teams that they should not stop their players from playing in international competitions. This reminder came shortly after Manu Ginobili said that the Spurs were doing just that.

The NBA had sent out a memo on May 2, 2007 to all the clubs that said as per the agreement the NBA had with FIBA, NBA teams had to allow their players to play in major national team competition provided sufficient insurance was obtained.

These major national team competitions include Olympics, world championships, continental championships and other qualifying tournaments.

Earlier Ginobili had said that he would not be playing for Argentina in the regional Olympic qualifying game in Las Vegas because the Spurs had requested him to skip the game and coach Gregg Popovich had given reasonable arguments to that effect. Argentina is the defending Olympic champion.

Popovich knows that ultimately it is player who has to make the decision about not playing in national team competitions and games. Popovich agrees that he and the team had advised him not to play the qualifier because they had a huge investment in him.

Walter Herrmann from Argentina will also not be playing in the (July 2007) FIBA Americas tournament. Herrmann said that it was requested by the Charlotte Bobcats as he got injured in September 2006 after playing in the world championships.

http://ezinearticles.com/?NBA-Remin...aying-In-International-Competitions&id=634400 (link full of suspicous ads, click on own risk)

I guess they had to send out this memo because nobody ever pushed those guys towards not playing. That makes sense.

By the way, nicely proves wrong VS666's theory that all this is NBA-planned.

Of course, publicly NBA owners paying big contracts to US stars on the national team are going to support the effort. Otherwise the media and fans would blast an owner for being "unpatroitic" for criticising a player's decision to represent his country;

That alone is pretty sad, isn't it?

The only time I've heard of an owner/president explicitly or openly questioning a player's participation for their national team (other than Mark Cuban) is when they're injuried, as was the case in 2009 when Manu Ginobili had a serious ankle injury during the season and San Antonio didn't want him to play in the Tournament of the Americas. He agreed with his club and sat out for the summer.

The Spurs basically never wanted him to play anywhere.

"Injured" is a bit inaccurate. Players play through pain all the time.

That news should be well received by coach Gregg Popovich, who Parker says has already counseled him to spend the summer relaxing on a beach somewhere.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/spurs/Spurs_Parker_might_not_play_for_France.html

In other cases it went much further: Kings pull Francisco Garcia out of FIBA Americas

The Dominicans were handicapped after getting the news, that the Sacramento Kings would not allow Francisco Garcia to play in this crucial match-up due to a minor hand-injury which he sustained earlier in this tournament.

http://www.fiba.com/pages/eng/fc/news/lateNews/p/newsid/32031/arti.html

The barring of Francisco Garcia to play in the last games cost the Dominicans the ticket to Turkey 2010.

http://www.fiba.com/pages/esp/fe/08...ews/p/newsid/32081/FE_news_lateNews_arti.html

“It’s the worst news I’ve been given. [...] I’m devastated. I wanted to play.” (JJ Barea)

JJ Barea held out of Americas Tourney by the Mavs

So yeah that's the harsh truth Europe should produce some franchise players and then noone would dare bother them,like Nowitzki who played 9 out of last 10 years with Germany.Role players and towel wavers more often than not tend to be pushovers

Dirk is a hilariously bad example. This was a struggle from day one. But Cuban in the end couldn't do anything about Dirk's competitive drive and him wanting to play with his buddies every summer. Still, in the end Dirk had to promise Cuban that he'd cancel Eurobasket 2009 if he participated in the Beijing Olympics.

But yeah, now that you bring up this point, I remember reading about the Bulls' concern with Hinrich going to Japan, the Kings' campaign to stop Brad Miller from too travelling there, the Rockets jumping on the fence when they heard about Battier making the 2006 roster and the Hornets' unwillingness to let Okafor travel to Greece. I guess it's really a franchise guy/role player thing.

 

[Straight forward2]

Surely, Dirk, Manu, Parker are the guys who will go and play if they will decide that (on other hand, remember how badly Spurs tried to avoid this...). But that what you saying is - start being "Nowitzki" and you are free two go. That rule is strange my friends. NBA clubs is a huge threat for international basketball and it sucks, why can't face it? There have been so much issues that it's not worth to discuss. NBA is fucking up international tournaments too often, that's a fact.

Now back to the real stuff. It's FIBA that should solve these problems.
Our BB federation expressed opinion that FIBA made these changes of rules (in the favor of NBA clearly) with agreement to have "easier tickets" for international players going to WC/Olympics or Eurobasket.

 

[Franz2]

Surely, Dirk, Manu, Parker are the guys who will go and play if they will decide that (on other hand, remember how badly Spurs tried to avoid this...). But that what you saying is - start being "Nowitzki" and you are free two go. That rule is strange my friends. NBA clubs is a huge threat for international basketball and it sucks, why can't face it? There have been so much issues that it's not worth to discuss. NBA is fucking up international tournaments too often, that's a fact.

Now back to the real stuff. It's FIBA that should solve these problems.
Our BB federation expressed opinion that FIBA made these changes of rules (in the favor of NBA clearly) with agreement to have "easier tickets" for international players going to WC/Olympics or Eurobasket.

Both the NBA and FIBA are at fault for international play suffering. The NBA has too many games during the season and playoffs. FIBA has a tournament happening every year which makes no sense.

One side needs to budge if both are unwilling to come together and find a solution.

 

[Federoy2]

Originally posted by robbe: I guess they had to send out this memo because nobody ever pushed those guys towards not playing. That makes sense.

The memo only confirms what I said in the first place. The NBA owners don't have a right to tell international players not to participate for their national teams. If the players wanted to play, nobody could legally stop them, and if Garcia, Barrea, and others were being told otherwise then that's where their agents or the NBA Player's Union should've gotten involved. And as you pointed out, NBA owners would prefer NONE of their players participate if that means injuries or fatigue interfering with the season.

There are some 75-80 foreign nationals that play in the NBA, and you find me a pultry handful of links that suppositely debunk my assertion that their is no evidence of a widespread conspiracy against pressuring foreign players not to play? Whatever.

Like I suggested, even if they were being pressured, if they really wanted to play nobody was stopping them. Like in the case of Ginobilli, Popovich asked Parker to rest up during the off season. That's not the same as MANDATING him to.

Originally posted by robbe: "Injured" is a bit inaccurate. Players play through pain all the time.

"Inaccurate" in what way? Since teams can't legally stop players from playing, wouldn't it make sense for the Spurs to use injury reasons to persuade (or coerce) Ginobilli not to play for his NT? If Ginobilli were healthy, under the pretense of NBA/FIBA's contract, would we be discussing this? The answer is NO.

Think about it, if he's been injuried 3 of the last 4 years with the same ankle injury, from San Antonio's standpoint aren't they going to protect their multi-million dollar investment so he can physically hold up for an entire season? Let's face it, NBA owners are paying players as professionals not as national team representitives. And let's not act as if NBA is alone in this disgracefulness. As I pointed out, big name soccer clubs in Europe aren't anymore willing to allow their foreign nationals to play for their national teams for the same reasons. Money is the driving force behind all of this behavior.

As for playing through pain...well, I don't know if you truly appreciate how gruling the NBA schedule is. Playing pre-season, regular season and playoff basketball amounts to 100+ games in a given season (with an extra 8 mins. tacked on and a faster pace then European basketball on top of that). That's a a lot of wear and tear on the body, and simply asking players to play through off-season injuries with no rest before the NBA season begins is unrealistic. It's no wonder why NBA owners are so skiddish about wanting their players to play in off season tournaments. God & Country means nothing to these owners when they have million dollar players with guarenteed contracts that are sidelined for half the season due to injury.

 

[bigsam2]

I should have used a better choice of wording.

I meant they are "highly opposed" to their international players playing. Of course, they can't do anything about it. But if they did have to power to do so, they would ban international play or make a stipulation in contracts.

The same with my idea

 

[mvblair2]

Everyone on this forum wants to see the best teams at the WC. I don't think anyone here has a problem with Manu playing for Argentina or Bogut playing for Australia. I think we all want that.

But the NBA as a business doesn't want that at all. Even if Z played only 150 minutes in the Olympics, there is still a very, very minor chance that he could get injured, so the Cavs said "well, even though there is a %.5 chance of him getting hurt, we're not going to let him play." The chances of any player getting hurt are very, very slim, but businesses don't want to take that chance. Nobody should be surprised about that.

Is it wrong? Yes. NBA teams should not prevent players from playing for their country.

Do NBA teams care? No. What does Joe Maloof care if the Dominican Republic qualifies for the WC? He doesn't care. That's not going to fill his arena.

 

[Franz2]

What does Joe Maloof care if the Dominican Republic qualifies for the WC? He doesn't care. That's not going to fill his arena.

DR success = more DR fans tune into basketball = more watch NBA = more watch Kings and buy merchandise

Longterm, it will be bring new fans to the Kings from the DR and that's what Maloof and his brother want as owners.

 

[mvblair2]

DR success = more DR fans tune into basketball = more watch NBA = more watch Kings and buy merchandise

Longterm, it will be bring new fans to the Kings from the DR and that's what Maloof and his brother want as owners.

I want that to be true, Franz, but I just don't think that would happen. When Germany finally went to the Olympics, I don't think more German viewers started watching the NBA. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Federoy2]

Everyone on this forum wants to see the best teams at the WC. I don't think anyone here has a problem with Manu playing for Argentina or Bogut playing for Australia. I think we all want that.

But the NBA as a business doesn't want that at all. Even if Z played only 150 minutes in the Olympics, there is still a very, very minor chance that he could get injured, so the Cavs said "well, even though there is a %.5 chance of him getting hurt, we're not going to let him play." The chances of any player getting hurt are very, very slim, but businesses don't want to take that chance. Nobody should be surprised about that.

Is it wrong? Yes. NBA teams should not prevent players from playing for their country.

Do NBA teams care? No. What does Joe Maloof care if the Dominican Republic qualifies for the WC? He doesn't care. That's not going to fill his arena.

The bottom line is that the NBA is a business just like McDonalds or Microsoft, and as an owner if I'm paying a player millions of dollars locked in by a guarenteed contract, I'd be weary of off-season activities too, especially if a player has a history of injuries like Big Z has. That's just the cold, hard nature of the business.

Having said that, I agree that it hurts the international game when owners put pro contracts ahead of players' willingness to compete for their NTs, particularly when the player is fit and healthy during the off-season. The "players-getting-hurt" scenario can happend in a variety of ways. I guy could be working out on his treadmill at home and pull a quad muscle, or a guy could be playing in a sanctioned practice during the Summer League and get hurt. The possibility of injury can exist anytime, anyplace, so it's no different of players are playing on their national team.

Legally, the NBA can't prevent players from playing for their NTs, and that's exactly why occasionally you hear stories about owners like the Maloofs or Mark Cuban "persuading" their players not to participate in summer-held international tournaments.

What's really shameful is that for the last 15-20 years the NBA has been plundering international talent and using them to sell the league as a global entity, but now some owners oppose the very vehicles (Olympics/WC) that have brought them and NBA so much prestige. God damn hypocrites.

 

[pohani komarac2]

The bottom line is that the NBA is a business just like McDonalds or Microsoft, and as an owner if I'm paying a player millions of dollars locked in by a guarenteed contract, I'd be weary of off-season activities too, especially if a player has a history of injuries like Big Z has. That's just the cold, hard nature of the business.

Having said that, I agree that it hurts the international game when owners put pro contracts ahead of players' willingness to compete for their NTs, particularly when the player is fit and healthy during the off-season. The "players-getting-hurt" scenario can happend in a variety of ways. I guy could be working out on his treadmill at home and pull a quad muscle, or a guy could be playing in a sanctioned practice during the Summer League and get hurt. The possibility of injury can exist anytime, anyplace, so it's no different of players are playing on their national team.

Legally, the NBA can't prevent players from playing for their NTs, and that's exactly why occasionally you hear stories about owners like the Maloofs or Mark Cuban "persuading" their players not to participate in summer-held international tournaments.

What's really shameful is that for the last 15-20 years the NBA has been plundering international talent and using them to sell the league as a global entity, but now some owners oppose the very vehicles (Olympics/WC) that have brought them and NBA so much prestige. God damn hypocrites.

that's why sport, not just basketball or nba, need extreem salary cap....i hate that sport become buissnies

 

[perucho1232]

fvck the nba

fvck the nba

the nba doesnt own the players. soon the nba teams are gona tell you who to marry or where to live? or forbade you from speaking your native language or suggest a name change to sound more american? this isnt a white slave trade. these players have the right to do what ever they want when the offseason comes around. corporations do not own us. freedom!!!!! american corporations have to learn there are no more slaves in the 21 century. david stern understands this well, but some of his comrades need a re-education on this topic. severe re-education. if the nba doesnt do this then international players will feel discouraged from comming to the nba.i know some people in management will love this because they dont want foreigners taking jobs from american at risk youths, but this will weaken a league which is full of street ballers and lack fundamentals playas.

 

[Federoy2]

management will love this because they dont want foreigners taking jobs from american at risk youths, but this will weaken a league which is full of street ballers and lack fundamentals playas.

I was with you up until this point. Sometimes I wonder if people on this forum who insist on calling the NBA a "street ballers" league having ever played in or watched a pick-up game in their lives. The NBA is no where near street ball. Implied in your sentence are a whole lotta stereotypes that don't necessarily apply.

 

[perucho1232]

my reply

my reply

Let me tell you what i mean. im tired of dicky v., jay bilas and others blatently blast nba franchizes for drafting international players instead of the senior point guard from some unknown college. saying college kids deserve more of a chance then some foreigner? i also resent when nba comentators like jeff van gundy ,and others refer to international players as "soft", "floppers" ",un-athletic" and "good role players". can i say derek fisher! he's just a good defender i guess. when international teams beat nba dream teams in 2002,2004,2006 i heard a million excuses. what about giving credit to the world for beating all-star rosters.now the us. wins in 2008, you dont see any excuses. usa won and lets see in 2010. speaking of van gundy he never met a foreigner he actually liked. the guy is biased. ginobili is a heck of an athlete.
i don't blame david stern for this. he's the reason basketball is the second biggest sport in the world. and the nba is among the richest leagues in all of sport including soccer. but people like mark cuban and others are sabotaging his vision. YOU HAVE TO LET PEOPLE PLAY FOR THEIR COUNTRY. its their right and they love to do it. its not a burden like it is for american nba players. this should not be an issue anymore. if they have the insurance let them play for their country