Can anybody stop the American domination in basketball ?

[Czarkazem132]

Mammoth, T-Rex, Velociraptor...

Dirt, soil and rock.

 

[Joe Yabuki2]

I think we should put it this way, USA have concentrated more on Basketball (they have, after all been playing it the longest) while Europeans have mostly concentrated at Soccer.

 

[Joško Poljak Fan2]

Carmelo is a scorer arguably on par with Durant. With more international experience.

It's not the matter of scoring or experience. Having a player able to play a center as agile with as good fundamentals and great shooting skills - that's the key.
US team has beaten with what used to be euro's weapon - an agile C/PF able to play efficiently near the rim and nailing a threepointer within 3 seconds or so... that's what makes Durant in incredible player for Fiba standards on C/PF position and what Carmelo can't provide

Boozer, Bosh and Stoudemire are far more efficient/consistent than the likes of Chandler, too. If anything, the tournament would have been easier if we had any of those guys.

You do know that Ben Wallace was once, at the begining of his bball career, fired by a second division italian team, because he wasn't good enough?
It's a matter of fitting in a different type of game, 3 guards + Odom + Durant is a terrific combination... Boozer, Bosh, Stoudamire already played on international tournaments and they didn't do much in particular - that wasn't for no reason. Chandler was a no factor with US performance, not much of an surprise, but I believe he was considered more as a back up in case US would have to face some equivalent heavy centers on court...

Durant is a player that is more "A-team" status, but he got stuck with players that are more "C-team" like.

I guess we can just agree to disagree... this C-team was formed up because of some stuff they can provide that the A team can't, at least not to the same extent - same stuff that the likes of Robbert Horry or Mario Elie were constantly providing and made their team win even with those two "relatively no names" in the team... believing Malone or Ray Allen could replace Horry or Elie even more efficietly is probably in the end just a matter of an opinion. In my opinion: no way.

 

[Czarkazem132]

I think we should put it this way, USA have concentrated more on Basketball (they have, after all been playing it the longest) while Europeans have mostly concentrated at Soccer.

Actually American concentrate more on "American" football, then basketball.

If only there was a World Cup for that...

 

[NorCal2]

Winning every title (WC, Olympics and if a euro team the eurobasket) for a longer stretch. More than 2 years for sure. Other than that I accept dominance in a game (as spain in the 06 final) or a tournament (92 USA), but not overall right now.

The ones you mentioned were not even dominant in those tournaments.

Let me give another example of dominance: Spain is undefeated vs Greece since 2006 easily winning most games.

2006 70-47
2007 76-58, 82-77
2008 81-66
2009 82-64
2010 80-72

So by your definition there has been no team that has been truly dominant since the U.S. in the 1990s then, correct?

If we are talking dominance in one tournament I would actually say the most dominant teams of the last 10 years have been '00 U.S., '06 Spain, '08 U.S. and '10 U.S. All were undefeated and had point differentials of 20+ points. If you win an international tournament with a 20+ pt differential in a single elimination format that would constitute dominance IMO.

How about this for dominance- since 1992, the U.S has won twice as many tournaments as the rest of the world combined (6-3) in tournaments where NBA players have played. Does that constitute dominance over 18 years?

As for the Spain being dominant over Greece, I would agree. But that's against one team, how much does that matter? Also, side note, if those scores were the U.S vs. Greece and someone said that the scores constitute dominance I just know someone on this forum would pick one single game out of them like the 82-77 game in '07 and say "How is a five point win dominant?". ITS ONE GAME. You cannot use one game as proof that a team is not dominant, its what happens over the course of many games or many years.

Look, the gap between U.S. players and the rest of the world is closing. The world will get to the level of the U.S. but its simply not there yet. No one can win as convincingly over a long period of time as well as the U.S. can. Please don't misconstrue this as me saying 'the U.S. team can't be beat', everyone can be beat.

 

[Strida2]

It's not the matter of scoring or experience. Having a player able to play a center as agile with as good fundamentals and great shooting skills - that's the key.
US team has beaten with what used to be euro's weapon - an agile C/PF able to play efficiently near the rim and nailing a threepointer within 3 seconds or so... that's what makes Durant in incredible player for Fiba standards on C/PF position and what Carmelo can't provide.

You do know that Carmelo outplayed Lebron in Redeem team practices, right?

Carmelo has all the right tools. With the shortened FIBA line, his 3PT troubles disappear, and he's someone who CAN post up better than most other wings. With that proposed team you have there...Carmelo wouldn't ever NEED to play center.

You do know that Ben Wallace was once, at the begining of his bball career, fired by a second division italian team, because he wasn't good enough?
It's a matter of fitting in a different type of game, 3 guards + Odom + Durant is a terrific combination... Boozer, Bosh, Stoudamire already played on international tournaments and they didn't do much in particular - that wasn't for no reason. Chandler was a no factor with US performance, not much of an surprise, but I believe he was considered more as a back up in case US would have to face some equivalent heavy centers on court...

And Team USA fans were pissed when Stoudemire had to quit International basketball. Stoudemire is good at defending pick and rolls, Bosh is a good scorer, and Boozer is probably the most consistent of the 3. They would have solved the size problem, AND they're all athletic players. They didn't NEED to dominate. They would have been key additions though. Better additions than Odom/Chandler.

You're crazy if you think that the staff would take Odom/Chandler over legit all-stars.

I guess we can just agree to disagree... this C-team was formed up because of some stuff they can provide that the A team can't, at least not to the same extent - same stuff that the likes of Robbert Horry or Mario Elie were constantly providing and made their team win even with those two "relatively no names" in the team... believing Malone or Ray Allen could replace Horry or Elie even more efficietly is probably in the end just a matter of an opinion. In my opinion: no way.

You just have to ask the players. Kobe was willing to become a defensive specialist in the last Olympics. Lebron has always been willing to take less shots. Wade was willing to come off the bench.

They're all willing to accept their given roles, especially when with guys like Coach K and D'antoni.

That Durant is a class above the rest and took the rest of the team a little bit higher to succeed the way they did? And that he pretty much made the difference that lead this team to the gold medal?

Durant would probably blush at the compliment, but that graph really doesn't tell us much. If you wanted to prove that, you would have to show the Five Man unit productions. Who is Durant playing with? Who is subbing in for him? Which unit is on the floor?

 

[janos2]

If only there was a World Cup for that...

Isn't the Superbowl supposed to be just that?

 

[NorCal2]

well... most people obviously don't see it this way... but Durant is more of a rule than exception... replace Durant (+4 more let's say Love, Gordon, Granger, Chandler) with Crymelo, Boozer, Bynum, Bosh and Stoudamire and US wouldn't "fit the game" as it did, wouldn't be as fundamental in the paint, efficient vs. zone, altogether: would be further from it's showcased dominance... and due to the status of the five mentioned above within the team, would mostlikely be beaten sooner or later in the tournament.

But that's the reason Coach K is righfully one of the most respected coaches in US, while reasons for his selection for this WC go way too deep for most yahoo, hoopshype, foxsports or simmilar writers, that just won't get it... and will try to pursue some of the most unfundamental giants, that prosper in the NBA, back to international scene. Kryzewski should retire from his position as the US head coach, he is a his peak now, while next time he'll mostlikely be forced to include in too many players that just don't fit the international basketball...

This team was dominant at this championship, congratulations... but don't take it for granted, as there's much more behind the game than just putting 5 big names on court and letting them play


see... that's what I'm talking about Rosen might be a writer, but god knows how he landed on basketball. As long as he doesn't become a coach, the world is a safer place...

You think Durant, Love, Gordon, Granger and Chandler > Carmelo, Boozer, Bynum, Bosh and Stoudemire with FIBA rules? I disagree. But we could debate the hypotheticals all day.

Hypotheticals are fun (that's one of the reasons we're on this forum, right?) but results and numbers, analyzing what has actually occurred is also fun. When you say that guys like Durant, Love, Gordon, Granger and Chandler are more fit for the international game than other more highly regarded NBA players that could be true but does that mean they should be sent to the '12 Olympics over the more highly regarded guys? IMO, no.
Take a look at the U.S.'s record and point differential when we've sent most of our best players:

'92 8-0 record +350 = 43.75 ppg differential
'94 8-0 record +275 = 34.38 ppg differential
'96 8-0 record +254 = 31.75 ppg differential
'00 8-0 record +173 = 21.63 ppg differential
'06 8-1 record +184 = 20.44 ppg differential
'08 8-0 record + 223 = 27.88 ppg differential

And when we haven't sent our best players:

'02 6-3 record +163 = 18.11 ppg differential
'04 5-3 record +37 = 4.63 ppg differential
'10 9-0 record +221 = 24.56 differential

I'm giving these numbers as the closest thing we have to numerical evidence that sending the best players we have will still give the U.S. the best chance to win Olympics or W.C.
Coach K and staff undoubtedly have learned a lot about what strategies/personnel benefits the U.S. the most but I'm 100% sure that if the best players are available they will send them to the '12 Olympics. And to that point, if Bosh, Stoudemire, Boozer, Carmelo or Bynum were available this year Coach K still would have put them on the team.

 

[NorCal2]

LOL

It's more like B team with players who are likely to join A team.

Westbrook and Rose are likely to be point guards of the future for USA. They will replace Williams and Paul after 2012 I assume. Billups was basically Kidd of this team. Odom, though not a great player, has experience with USA team. Gordon is one of the best shooters the USA has had in awhile. Iguodala, Gay, and Granger are all better than Prince who was on 2008 team. Love could end up being another Boozer in the future. Regardless, he's more likely to be on future teams since he's ideal for FIBA basketball.

So really, the only "C" level players are Curry (a future chucker) and Chandler. The only reason I considered this USA team inferior to A team was due to their lack of experience. They proved they could win without experience so I would put them in the same category as the rest of USA's top players.

Hypothetical- who would you choose to win in a 7 game series- the U.S. team from this year or the below team?:

PG Rajon Rondo , Aaron Brooks
SG Brandon Roy , Tyreke Evans , Ray Allen
SF Joe Johnson , Paul Pierce , Josh Smith
PF David Lee , Al Jefferson
C Tim Duncan , Amare Stoudemire

This would be our 'B' team IMO. Given the same practice time, preparation games, etc. I believe this team would beat the team we sent this year. And wouldn't that make our team from this year a 'C' team? Or no?

 

[robbe2]

Durant would probably blush at the compliment, but that graph really doesn't tell us much. If you wanted to prove that, you would have to show the Five Man unit productions. Who is Durant playing with? Who is subbing in for him? Which unit is on the floor?

Of course it says much. Of course we're aware of the noise factor of +/-. But to say, with these extreme numbers, "it doesn't say much", is kind of a funny statement.

 

[Strida2]

Hypothetical- who would you choose to win in a 7 game series- the U.S. team from this year or the below team?:

PG Rajon Rondo , Aaron Brooks
SG Brandon Roy , Tyreke Evans , Ray Allen
SF Joe Johnson , Paul Pierce , Josh Smith
PF David Lee , Al Jefferson
C Tim Duncan , Amare Stoudemire

This would be our 'B' team IMO. Given the same practice time, preparation games, etc. I believe this team would beat the team we sent this year. And wouldn't that make our team from this year a 'C' team? Or no?

That is a freaking beautiful lineup. That's seriously perfect.

Oh god...the Rondo pick and rolls with Amar'e/Lee would be gorgeous.

Shoot, there are STILL players that could mesh into that lineup. Namely Zach Randolph, and POSSIBLY Greg Oden if we ever somehow get killed on defense.

 

[Strida2]

Of course it says much. Of course we're aware of the noise factor of +/-. But to say, with these extreme numbers, "it doesn't say much", is kind of a funny statement.

It's important to know who's playing with him as well. Westbrook himself has built up amazing chemistry with Durant. So much so that most of his assists are towards Durant.

Yes, we KNOW that Durant is better than the other players, but that graph doesn't tell the whole story like the other poster implied.

 

[qiangdade2]

You cannot use one game as proof that a team is not dominant, its what happens over the course of many games or many years.

Winning every title (WC, Olympics and if a euro team the eurobasket) for a longer stretch. More than 2 years for sure

finally. someone agreed on my point

 

[thelebanese802]

what would happened if USA send this team:
starting lineup:

1-dwayne wade
2-kobe bryant
3-lebron james
4-kevin garnet/carmelo anthony
5-dwight howard

WHAT A TEAM

 

[Czarkazem132]

Isn't the Superbowl supposed to be just that?

Like the World Series...

 

[Czarkazem132]

what would happened if USA send this team:
starting lineup:

1-dwayne wade
2-kobe bryant
3-lebron james
4-kevin garnet/carmelo anthony
5-dwight howard

WHAT A TEAM

Probably would leave off KG. He's older and has had some recent injuries. Staying with their positions, I would go with:

PF - Carmelo Anthony*
SF - Lebron James
C - Dwight Howard
PG - Chris Paul
SG - Dwyane Wade

*Not his natural position, but has the skills to play there in international ball, there are three great 3s (add Kevin Durant) so at least two should start.

 

[shutup_2]

I didn't expect Brazil came close. But If they had faced Spain or Serbia, it could be interesting, but sorry it didn't happen.

Turkey doesn't deserve to be in the finals. All they do is cry to the referees. Serbia could have given them a tougher challenge.

OK genious. Explain this. Lithuania crushed the shit out of Serbia. USA crushed the shit out of Lithuania.

Worst Turkey defeated best Serbia in this tournament. I know you can`t explain this one either. Even refs with super powers can`t do anything about it. Let me give you a clue. Turkey used its tough defence to beat Serbia. And USA has a tougher defence than Turkey. So Serbia doesn`t stand a chance against USA. We beat Serbia last year, this year probably we will beat them next year too. I know Serbia is a very good team but I don`t see big difference between Spain Turkey Serbia Greece Argentina etc. But you can still say Serbia is a better team. I don`t care about that. You may be right. What I care about is that No team including Serbia Spain Greece Argentina Turkey whatever can`t beat USA 3 out of 10 games.

Deal with it people and stop crying. This USA team is better than the USA team with leBron James D. Wayne Tim Duncan in the previous WC.

 

[carlo2]

It's not only NBA and the recent Fiba World, USA are champs in all ages competitions (U17 2010, U19 2009 and Seniors 2008-2010).
That's a big and probably unprecedented accomplishment.

 

[robbe2]

It's important to know who's playing with him as well. Westbrook himself has built up amazing chemistry with Durant. So much so that most of his assists are towards Durant.

In the NBA? In Turkey that definitely wasn't the case. If you look at play-by-play, only 2 of his 23 assists in this tournament created a Durant field goal.

But I don't quite see the relevance regarding USA minus Durant being -14 in 43 minutes against those six teams either.

Yes, we KNOW that Durant is better than the other players, but that graph doesn't tell the whole story like the other poster implied.

There's no statistic that tells the whole story. But comparing the stats with what I saw, I'd say it's both going into the same direction.

 

[artorius2]

Yosephus, Imhotep, Hesy-Ra, Sophocles, Aristotle, Melchizedek....?

tao,buddha,moses,jesus,mohammed they are here still.as 4 basket gods will gonna be.omg allen??? how stable guy.4 games of miracles and commentor forgot his name for next 20 games.

cm on these 4 guys are the best of ever.and till now no challenger came.maybe can come in future but it ll be very hard.very very fu..in hard.believe in me