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All time NT

  • Thread starter Thread starter Straight forward2
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That's not what I was talking about. You simply switched the topics. I wasn't comparing Rokas/Iggy with players as Schroder/SGA or so. You should learn to stay in the topic.

And, yes, the hierarchy of our guards matter. In other words, ATM all our 3 guards may be more or less on the same level (all being above average EL guards, but that's all for now), but the important moment is that Jokubaitis and Brazdeikis are only scratching the surface of their upside. Grigonis reached his prime (and even bothered by back issues) while Jokubaitis and Brazdeikis getting better with each day. That's the difference. That's why our BEST CHANCE (be precise interpreting these words) is Jokubaitis and Brazdeikis.

As for your question (which is other topic) - it's funny that you ask me this. I'm here preaching about contemporary basketball for a decade and now you come and ask me whenever I've noticed that guards are most important :D Come on, dude, don't be funny. You sound a bit retarded with this :)

While you pointed out complete triviality, Mr. Obvious kinda shit (8yo guy who follows bb today knows that guards lead the teams today), one thing has to be said - world class perimeter star (Dragic, Doncic, Rubio, Bogdanovic, Schroder, Mills) and EL elite guard (Brown) are 2 different animals. Spain 2022 showed that you can win with one elite EL guard and correct chemistry, you don't even need world class guard (the one who can successfully play in the NBA too). So if Jokubaitis becomes elite EL player (which may happen even as soon as one or two upcoming years likely) we'll have much better chance to win something. Obviously you do want to have NBA guards these days, but having elite EL guard is already legitimate position to fight for something big.
 
Im telling facts who won medals in 2019-2023 not what like or dislike


Thats why im saying after watching and seeing final results 2019-2023 i dont believe its possible to win medal with just team play anymore in 2020s basketball
without game changing perimeter star that gonna save team in streaches when nothing works vs good defences.

LTU basketball didnt have such level guard in last 15 years and we can see in our results.

Clearly can be seen perimeter stars won all recent medals


Its not about contemporary basketball or coaches playing style in 2020s fiba basketball is all about one thing do NT have Schroder,Mills,Shai level game changing guard or not ?
 
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How many grades did you finish in high school, bro? You have issues :)
 
2019: Rubio,Campazzo,Fournier

2021 Durant,Fournier,Mills

2022 Brown,Fournier,Shroder

2023 Schroder,Bogdanovich,Shai


10 medals was leaded by nba guards, 2 by euroleague elite guards


What are we trying to fool with our 15minutes euroleague backups? Hope is good thing,but ltu nt future looks grim, looking what kinda level perimeter leader is needed to win medals in 2020s.

No wonder LTU made top 8 once in last 7 years with our backup level guards.
 
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What's the new here? There's absolutely nothing new. All the time most of the best NTs were led by NBA players. In which planet do you live? Can you see only recent years from there?

In 2017 it's Dragic, in 2015 it's Pau, in 2013 Parker, in 2001 Parker, Pau, 2009 Rudy, 2007 DIrk and so on. Like Marciulionis couldn't drop 20ppg in the NBA in 90's and beat the hell out of anybody in ISO situations.

The only thing changed that Lithuania failed to develop elite guards in 10's compared to 90s and 00s. That's all. Now at the beginning of 20s we are very close to have elite guard again. Lorenzo Brown or Compazzo could only dream about the level of Jokubaitis that he has been as 21-22yo. Actually Jokubaitis exceeds Jasikevicius and likely Marciulionis (Rooney had higher upside though) in terms where he's been in recent years and were those been as 21-22yo.
 
dinoosour expert


Throwing random medal winners from the past that was nba bigs shows that u dont even understand topic

Im not talking just about gold medal winners,entire podiums are leaded by nba guards in last 4 tournaments.


Nba bigs leaded their NT to exactly 0 medals in last 5 years.

When nba guards leaded to 10 medals in last 5 years


in 2000s or 2010s fiba we can find alot examples of nba bigs leading his NT to medal


What happend before 2015 and Warriors 2015-2019 run its irrelevant.That Warriors run changed basketball playing style worldwide


Results of last 5 years shows way more info what wins in 2020s todays fiba
 
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Perimeter players playing bigger and bigger role. The pace is increasing and there's more shooting. That is clear. But essentially when it comes to talent, I don't see any difference. Actually I see a decline when it comes to talent. Do FIBA Europe has anyone like Dirk today? Nope. Is any-one from non USA (and Canada's SGA) guards are as good as Parker or Manu (or even Stojakovic)? Only Doncic, that's it. You bragging about Schroders, Bogdanovics, Fourniers, but Parker, Dragic, Manu were better.

When LTU NT was winning stuff in the world stage 2000-2008 with EL stars as Saras, Siska, Macas, it had to take down ALL NBA guys as Stojakovic, Manu, Parker, Dirk, Pau. Now you have to take down Schroder, Bogdanovic, Fournier, Rubio, Mils (none of them are ALL NBA material so all this tier is at least one level below) or freaking Lorenzo Brown.

Give me Saras, Siska, Macijauskas, Stombergas today and LTU would be snatching medals just as it did in 00's. That NT almost beat really stacked USA NT 2000 in the semis.

Another thing. In that last 5 years stretch the best individual was Durant. Not a guard, but all around forward with tremendous scoring/shooting profile. The reason why we don't see forwards or bigs among medaling teams is that we don't have such players as Dirk or Pau in the game today. Specially some-one like Dirk. But when we speak about Germany, don't forget that Franz Wagner played a big role for Germany and he was even injured. He has an upside to be something special.

My point is that elite EL players as Saras, Siska could very well compete with today's opposition, they seen better players in front of them generally. If you think that Lithuania would suck balls with 3-4 elite EL guards today, you don't really get it. To stay in front of Parker was more difficult than to say in front of Schroder.

Another point - prime Lebron or prime Durant are better than any guard, IMO. That's where Lithuania can be hopeful if Buzelis pans out. He has a chance to be special with his size and skill. Give me 6'11 dude who has nearly guard skill and can shoot against anyone, and he will be the best baller in the game. Even if Buzelis fails or won't show up, I see Lithuania having 3-5 elite EL guards in the second half of decade and early 30s. And that alone will be enough to fight for medals legitimately, IMO. If Buzelis will join being NBA star, we can have a team that will finally be in Olympic final.
 
Straight forward said:
Give me Saras, Siska, Macijauskas, Stombergas today and LTU would be snatching medals just as it did in 00's. That NT almost beat really stacked USA NT 2000 in the semis.
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Nobody is disagreeing on that point.

Where I disagree is that at times you seem to be implying both that the Lithuanian coaching establishment including present head coach Kazys Maksvytis is holding back the development of star guards and that Jonas Valančiūnas is a net negative that Team Lietuva would be better off without.

:(​
 
Hepcat said:
Nobody is disagreeing on that point.

Where I disagree is that at times you seem to be implying both that the Lithuanian coaching establishment including present head coach Kazys Maksvytis is holding back the development of star guards and that Jonas Valančiūnas is a net negative that Team Lietuva would be better off without.

:(​
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Both points, IMO, are correct. Maksvytis didn't even invite Marciulionis to the main camp while majority of BB community wanted to see that. And JV is terrible terrible defender. We are butt naked with him on the court. I literally believe that it's impossible to win with turtle fast center to win in today's big games. Impossible.
 
Straight forward said:
Maksvytis didn't even invite Marciulionis to the main camp while majority of BB community wanted to see that.
Click to expand...

Coach Maksvytis though isn't running a circus to entertain the public. Augustas Marčiulionis' numbers playing NCAA ball have not been nearly good enough to this point to merit an invitation to the national team camp.​

Straight forward said:
And JV is terrible terrible defender. We are butt naked with him on the court. I literally believe that it's impossible to win with turtle fast center to win in today's big games. Impossible.
Click to expand...

Your ignoring the "detail" that without the offensive dominance that Jonas Valančiūnas​ brings Team Lietuva probably wouldn't get to those big games. Yes Valančiūnas​ has his weaknesses but he also has his strengths. That's why he made the second All-Star team at this year's World Cup.

Basketball is situational. A coach has to take what the opposition is giving up. But to do so a coach needs a diverse tool kit. And Valančiūnas​ with his skills is a valuable part of any national team coach's tool kit.

:(
 
Retrospectively looking, regarding the positive impact to the NT, I have this:

Javtokas > Valanciunas

What those 2 generations taught - defensive center is more impactful than offensive center. Javtokas was just a right piece for a winning team. He would cover the D, he wouldn't ask the ball offensively and play within the flow nearly perfectly. Valanciunas would be a back hole defensively, stop the flow offensively with ISO post scoring attempts.

To me the lesson learned, NT needs more of defensive centers. I watched 40yo or so Sabonis with Zalgiris a bit yesterday (against PAO, game's in youtube). He still could move way more flexibly and shifty than JV, his defensive IQ was top notch, his quick and long hands were terrific, brilliant, I think no-one had such hands, no-one in basketball (maybe Hakeem, but he had shorter hands), he was making so many deflections. I'm convinced that JV's presence turned out to be the most disappointing outcome that could possibly be. He couldn't establish his offensive dominance into man's basketball (specially FIBA) and was complete failure defensively. Time to say that nearly a prodigy of Youth basketball, the most dominant U-level player of Lithuania, turned out to be complete disappointment in PRO.

Overall I doubt Lithuania will ever have such talent as Arvydas Sabonis ever again. I understand this with age even better. He was sensational player. If he had a chance to be in the NBA environment starting with being 18-20yo, I think he could have a chance to become MVP in some NBA seasons. He had everything what fantastic center needs to have and he was way better defender than Jokic.
 
No players from Paulauskas and Jovaisa's kids. Arvydas son Domas will be hall of fame. Marciulionis sone Augustas will be a good player. Kurtinaitis son was poor player. I'm surprised we don't hear anything from Karnisovas, he has three kids, but none of them stood out as players so far. Einikis son was mediocre. Siskauskas son Matas has some promise, but long term piece (still that crazy 2006 generation which not only has plenty of stars, but interesting long term side prospects). Jasikevicius son might be good, but too soon to say, but he's playing. No news on Macijauskas kids yet. Stombergas kid is a standout of 2008 gen.

Sometimes genes are not so important. Jakucionis comes from non basketball family and he might come down as second best LTU guard ever in LTU chronicles. But I'm a bit disappointed that we don't hear things from Karnisovas and Macijauskas side. Those guys were scoring machines literally. And genes surely don't hurt. Buzelis comes from pure basketball family.
 
I sneaked in to study the champs of 20s so far and one clear tendency (unsurprising, but still interesting specially in lasted USA edition). The team which wants to WIN IT ALL has to have one leading player who would take 17-19 shots per game. One non arguable leader. And that leader should make at least 50% FGA, and make at least 28pts. In 2021 Olympic final Durant took 18 shots and scored 29pts. In 2022 true final was Spain vs Germany (in finals Spain weak France comfortably), both L. Brown and Schroder went hard against each other with 17 shots each and having big games. In 2023 Schroder 17 shots and 28pts. In opposing team Avramovic tried to match that with 15 shots, but the % wasn't there exactly. In 2024 it is specially interesting that Curry was still big time leader next Lebron and KD, Ant and so on. In the finals he took only 13 shots and KD had 12, but the true final was against Serbia in semis and there Curry took 19 shots, dropped 36pts and no-one was even close.

Basically so far the story is clear. To win the key big games (be it in semis or final), you have to have a guy who can unleash BIG GAME taking 17-19 shots with 50% and +.

The last guy of such mentality was Kleiza. He unleashed 18 shots agains Serbia in small final in 2010 and dropped 33pts. No-one from Lithuanians ever get close to such scoring bursts ever since. No-one has balls and profile of the player taking +17 shots, not even for a try. Grigonis is guy who can unleash 13-14 shots, but that's it, it's his range and he can't cope with pressure and tough defense when it matters. Before Kleiza we had Siskauskas (who unleashed 17 shots agains Russia in 2007 semis and dropped 30pts), Macijauskas who would unleash 16 shots in Olympics 2004. Jasikevicius (with 16 shots in 2000 Olympics). And of course before those we had ultimate scorers in Karnisovas, Marciulionis, Sabonis, Kurtinaits (Kurtis unleashed 16 shots in 1992 Olympics).

So in all history we had 8 ultimate scorers who could take 16 and plus shots per game (maybe Stombergas here should be mentioned too). When Kleiza collapsed we ceased to have such calibre players. No-one could offer that in 2014-2024 stretch. So basically we have no ultimate scorer for 10 years.

Today without such players to win I think is nearly impossible. You surely can't win tournaments. Even second rate teams as PR who have some individual talent can punish unprepared us because they have players who have talent and guts to unleash 17-19 shots per game and cause trouble.

That's why next season or 2-3 upcoming seasons will be the key. We will know what we get from guys who potentially have that mentality and ability to go off in big games and be true leaders. KJ and Buzelis, These guys have range of taking excessive shots and make them. Jakucionis in U18 unleashed 29 shots. In Spanish lague with Barca, he unleash 26 shots and 7 FTs in his 39pts game. Buzelis showed in Summer League he wants to be a lead player. He played with star's mentality and he was taking shots even when it did not fall. He showed he's ready to take 18 shots and so per game. These 2 are key and next season not only will show how Buzelis makes a debut on NBA court, but also will define whenever KJ will play in NBA after one NCAA season with Illini and will come to NT 2027 as 2 years NBA experience guy (if he's choking with Illini and not being selected first round in 2025, then the story gets complicated, if he prevails in Illini we will know he's a true stud and going forward without any set backs).

But here's the thing, that's not the only guys who might reach that level of a guy who can shoot 16-17 shots and plus. Brazdeikis unleashed 19 shots in Summer League and dropped 30. In NT as a rookie he unleashed 14 shots and was leading the team per FGA. His ceiling is limited because of certain things, but he plays like alpha and mentality wise is close to Kleiza, just not that talented and explosive. Then Sirvydis. Yes, I believe Sirvuha can unleash some major tournaments in the future. He won't be your true lead player per se most likely, but he is the guy who doesn't care and can shoot his 9th three after missing all previously. Sirvydis let Eurocup in scoring and that's not easy to do. None other LTU player ever did that. Indrusaitis is the guy who unleashed 25 and 24 shots games in U18, he is nearly on the same tier with KJ when it comes to scoring ego and scoring bursts range. He is most ISO gifted after KJ and Buzelis. Rubstavicius also is alpha when it comes to scoring and can have major scoring outbursts. He might repeat what Sirvydis did in Eurocup, but to do that being younger than him. His 37pts game at U20 just conforms that. Murauskas also is ultimate scorer. He unleashe 20 and 18 FGA games in U20. And lastly, maybe surprisingly for some, it's Tubelis. Tubelis is an ultimate offensive player with flawless attitude offensively. He doesn't give a fuck and would play with the same face all the time, in good way. He would jack off some air ball three and hit nothing but the net in second possession. His non hiesitant profile makes him intriguing. He would dunk on people, as a big he can launch 7-8 threes with comfort. His body language reminds Kleiza a lot as well. In U19 he unleashed 21 shots in one game. A guy who showed he can comfortably take 18 shots and so in LKL.

So our situation potentially is very bright:

World class potential ultimate scorers:

KJ, Buzelis

Alpha mentality scorers

Iggy, Indrusaitis, Sirvydis, Rubstavicius, Murauskas, Tubelis

​
 
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Kaunas is among top 10 cities in the world who produce the most NBA players per 100k population. Kaunas produced 8 NBA players. Rooney, Sabas, Ilgauskas, Saras, Kleiza, D-Mo, Iggy, Andriuskevicius.

Kaunas is Kaunas. It's gonna be hard too beat that record. Even say both Buzelis and Domas have tight connections with Kaunas.

Even though Vilnius dude Jakucionis may become highest drafted Lithuanian ever.

https://playofvalues.com/kaunas-european-basketball-mecca/
 
My biggest losses of LTU BB:

1. Macijauskas retiring from NT basically 26yo (the last time he suited for the NT 2006). He was such an amazing baller, so amazing shooter and super aesthethical player. It was all pleasure and honor to watch him. To me it's the saddest loss cause I think with him we would had won 2007 EB and silver of 2008 Olympics and probably even more medals. Very very sad that we didn't see prime Macijauskas with NT jerseys.

2. Ilgauskas. Never truly played and he was amazing. I personally grew up more with Ilgauskas rather than Arvydas Sabonis (him too off course), but Ilgauskas was nearly as important to me when it comes to bigs. An amazing feel for the game, super soft hands, best mid range jimmy ever from Euro centers I think. So we'll never know how good he could be playing with his fellow Jasikevicius.

3. Kleiza's collapse. He still played in 2013, but essentially we lost prime Kleiza in 2010. So his story is very similar to Macijauskas. Both were legit, but to me Macijauskas is even more special player in FIBA. That version of Macijauskas when he was scoring 27,3ppg in the knock out stage of 2004 OG was outstanding. Kleiza also was special and if he stayed healthy, as well as D-Mo, our 2015-2019 stretch could be much different.

4. Marciulonis early end of career. He was just 32yo when ended his career in the NT in 1996. His level player, if healthy, could be elite at least till 35. healthy Marciulionis was = medals. So you can count the loss.

5. D-Mo's back injury. He could be very very good. And we never seen the best version of D-Mo in the NT. So surely top 5 loss.

6. Overlooked early retirement of Karnisovas and Siskauskas. Both could give more, but decided to step down too soon.

7. Pocius decline because of injuries. I would say after 2010 something happened. He was dynamic and explosive and then he was just declining after that. And we needed him in 10's, for the depth and for some ISO game. So this loss is overlooked a bit.


When I watch Macijauskas highlights I just miss that level players in the NT. God bless Jakucionis and his health. He is the first true gem to bring back guard greatness into LTU NT culture. We just need a real fire again. Just can't going further with mediocrity. All this great narrative is dying with it. I feel like it's do or die transition phase, at least to me. I got spoiled with Sabas, Rooney, Karnisovas, Sombergas, Ilgauskas, Jasikevicius, Siskauskas, Macijauskas, Kleiza stretch (even Kalnietis) and then you end up with whatever...It was just a tough stretch to handle, when LTU left butt naked at the perimeter. I feel like we can't keep going this way, it's a self destruct path. I surely feel like that. So better big players prevail with green jerseys again cause NT surely has been dying. More kids chooses freakin' football. It's disgusting.
 
Mindaugas Kuzminskas announced retirement of the NT. Biggest respect. Very good player, comes down into history as one of the best NT forwards, but most importantly even bigger persona and role model for all future NT players and fans. His loyalty and heart was beyond reach. One of true and legendary NT warriors. Great career, great dedication, some great wins and classy way to end the career of the NT.

https://www.facebook.com/mkuzminskas/videos/1340720457066022/?ref=embed_video&t=172
 
I'm still shocked no-one talks about Kazlauskas decision in 1999 quarter-finals against Spain. 11 seconds to go, the game is tight 72:72. And Kazlauskas commands Adomaitis to foul Spaniards, sending them directly to the FT line. Jesus Christ...what was that? :D That Lithuania team was head and shoulders above any other team, I doubt any Spanish team with prime Pau was so advanced than all other teams. And Kazlauskas blew that tournament. The tournament where we had to take our first modern title. We led the tournament by points, rebounds, assists. Total domination and one weaker game and unimaginable Kazlauskas mistake and that's it.

Love Kazlauskas, but this is crazy. At that time there was no internet, no basketball sites if I remember correctly. People wanted to throw TVs through the window. At that time I was too little to realize or remember that mistake. But I find amazingly awkward that it never was really discussed and is not discussed. Kazlauskas voluntary blew the tournament with the most stupid decision ever in FIBA BB likely.

Kazlauskas was a solid coach. Like really solid coach, EL level coach (Maksvytis is not EL level coach, forget about it. Lithuania has only one EL level coach and that's Jasikevicius). But he never was elite. Sorry, but elite coach would never make such mistakes. And he made tons of mistakes in 2001 and 2016. Yeah, for our standards Kazlauskas would be gold, but damn we are something really horrific in the coaching part...

Well, I think Kazlauskas compensated his mind blowing disgrace of 1999 and misfortune of 2001 with overachievements in 2013-2015 stretch.

If not our imbecile coaching, we would have medals in 1999, 2001, 2004, 2008 and off course 2005 and 2006 cause stars (at least Jasikevicius) declined those tournaments because of dissatisfaction with coaching (Sireika).
 
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