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All time NT

  • Thread starter Thread starter Straight forward2
  • Start date Start date
As always delighted and honored to hear your expertise, madmax.
 
madmax said:
Karnisovas was a one trick pony as well, not really a great player as you are painting him out to be:D
He's pretty much in the same class as Kleiza, who also could only score and do nothing else on the court really - he's nowhere near the level of guys like JV, Sabonis and his son, Marciulionis and I would even put Siskauskas, Jasikevicius and Macijauskas as definitely better all around players than him. Anyone who was old enough to watch him live would agree with me:cool:
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"Could only score"... Jeez, man, it's like we are talking about some freaking Gecevicius, who exactly could only score. But maybe there're different levels of scorers too? Macas also could mostly just score, but the way he did that was masterpiece on Euro scene, the same was Karnisovas. He could score in any way possible -drive, mid range jumper, fade away, three, draw fouls and etc. It all looked so elegant and easy for him, not cause of his physical skills only, but simple bball IQ too. He was a true leader, go-to guy. You could build all offensive game around him as he wasn't too selfish either, had good court vision, read the game, could pass the ball well. Some Kleiza could only envy his bball IQ. Exactly Kleiza was that pure scorer. Talking about versatility, Karnis could play PF and did that in NT quite frequently. Of course he is known for his offense the most, but thnx to long arms, the same IQ, he could steal the ball well and was far from useless defender.
No doubt great talent, one of the biggest in NT history. Sad that injuries ruined his career way too early. The same it did for mentioned Macas and Kleiza. None reached even 30yo during their last summer with NT
 
madmax just wanted to say that one sentence, that's all. That's all he ever says here - "he's nowhere near the level of guys like JV (...)" :o Till JV playing, no other guy from past, current or future stands a chance. Case closed.

Spot on points, Mindozas. When it comes to all time Lith players, to me Arvydas and Rooney stand in different category, IMO, no-one yet reached that level. After these GOATs and Hall of Famers, I think Karnisovas is the most complete player we ever had. Kleiza didn't have Arturas' IQ, passing ability, and was worse defensively (more athletic and better rebounder though, but that don't surpass Karsis' advantages, IMO). Macijauskas was worse defensively and his scoring profile was still a lot based on shooting while Karnisovas was doing absolutely everything, it's hard to even pick out his go to move, as he was doing everything at high level and at almost equal quantity: shooting, driving, mid-rage game; also I argue that Arturas was a bit better passer than Macijauskas. Siskauskas was super universal, but wasn't as explosive offensively, wasn't so terrific shooter and scorer as Karnisovas. Again, in 90's we had without a question best 3-4 players punch ever and honestly I don't think we'll ever have better. We might have much better teams in the future (maybe even had in 2003-2004), I have little doubt, but I doubt we'll have better bunch of supreme individuals. The bar at his point is at incredible height.
 
Reinaldas Seibutis retires. Huge respect for his guy. Definitely one of the top 5 figures of 10's Lithuanian basketball (along with Kalnietis, Valanciunas, Kleiza, Maciulis). Great fighter and great personality. Hope he would become a good a coach.
 
Shawshank said:
Kalnietis and Jasikevicius will stay nr 1 and nr 2 in assists for very long time. Find another pg that will play with ltu jersey till 35 age and 30min a game in most tournaments thats hard to see anytime soon to have such skills and such dedication come every summer for like 15 years.

They will stay on that list like Stockton and Kidd stays in nba all time assist list.
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I disagree. I believe Jokubaitis has perfect chance to become No.1 after his career. I assume all official NT games are counted (even of only main tournaments as Eurobasket, WC, Jokubaitis still will have perfect chances) and if so he already has like 18 assists in his bag. Off course, FIBA system is different now and Eurobasket are rarer, but there's more qualification games where maybe Jokubaitis will appear here and there. Never the less, have in mind that Kalnietis made debut in as 20, but then he got a serious role only as 24yo. Jokubaitis started at 20 also, but since now there's no doubt he'll be in the NT every summer (if healthy) and will play important role. Saras started only as 22yo. IMO, Jokubaitis has good chances to be even No.1 maybe, specially that assists are counted a little bit more liberal now than in Saras' days. Anyway, that's only stats, but Jokubaitis has all and more to be better than Kalnietis and he may be in the territory of Saras talent.
 
LTU NT by positions over years that made the diffrence and had starters role for multiple years:


PG Marciulionis--> Jasikevicius --> Kalnietis --> Jokubaitis

SG Kurtinaitis --> Macijauskas--> Kaukenas --> Seibutis --> Grigonis

SF Karnisovas --> Stombergas --> Siskauskas --> Maciulis--> ???

PF Einikis --> Songaila/K.Lavrinovic --> Kleiza --> Jankunas --> D.Sabonis

C A.Sabonis --> Einikis/Zukauskas --> R.Javtokas --> J.Valanciunas



i think thats the best of the best lithuanians players who ever weared ltu jersey.

This names takes all first top 20 places in scored pts in NT history 1992-2021.

Only Jokubaitis,Grigonis and D.Sabonis is not there yet but its just question of time.
 
Shawshank said:
PG Marciulionis--> Jasikevicius --> Kalnietis

SG Kurtinaitis --> Macijauskas--> Kaukenas --> Seibutis

SF Karnisovas --> Stombergas --> Siskauskas --> Maciulis

PF Einikis --> Songaila/K.Lavrinovic --> Kleiza --> Jankunas
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It's unbelievable how badly Lithuanian basketball declined after 90's and 00's.

I'm almost certain that we will never again have stronger 4 stars punch in Sabonis, Marciulionis, Karnisovas, Kurtinaitis and it will be extremely difficult to ever field more capable line-up than Jasikevicius, Macijauskas, Siskauskas, Songaila, Javtokas
 
its more unbelievable how badly our 2020s NT underperform with obviuos more tallent compared to 2010s.

2020s NT is not about lack of tallent is about lack of character and toughness. Those internet grown kids are very soft in all areas on basketball court compared even to 2010s generation.

Its getting to a point in our NT is not about just basketbal skillset,but do our internet kids have men balls and can use some dirty shit from time to time to flip the game when it goes badly ? Or they gonna stand still like good kids and let opponents do what ever they like ?

I miss Maciulis,Kleiza,Jankunas elbows and other dirty shit they were doing to win at any cost.

Watched how our 2020s softies is pushed around was painfull experience last 5 years.

When i heard Maciulis and Kleiza how they talk about todays kids that you cant say a harsh word or they wont talk to you for a week :) thats weak ass attitude goes directly to basketball couart.


Put today 2010 peak years NT and 2020s peak years players i have no doubt that 2010 outhustles,outpush and outmen with bigger balls more basketball tallent 2020s NT like they did multiple times in playoofs to other better teams 2010s.


2020s NT too kind players need general type like Kazlauskas or Jasikevicius that will demand f***ing make it a street fight for every centimeter near the basket.

When Sharas was demanding luptis in zalgiris there were results. It possible to make fight even those internet boys,but we need a coach to force them do that or no wins in playoofs.

We need fighters with men balls more and less a lovers ale Kuzminskas,Lekavicius,Bendzius,Masiulis,Giedraitis,Sirvydis,Kulbokas types to win playoofs games.

From younger generation Sedekerskis,Velicka,Jokubaitis,Brazdeikis,Blazevic looks more to fighter type.

When NT will need put more fresh blood im eyeing that group first,but not those softies shooters.
 
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LuDux said:
OK Boomer
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Spot on

Shawshank said:
its more unbelievable how badly our 2020s NT underperform with obviuos more tallent compared to 2010s.

2020s NT is not about lack of tallent is about lack of character and toughness. Those internet grown kids are very soft in all areas on basketball court compared even to 2010s generation.
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In 20s so far we only took place in Olympic qualification 2021 where more talented Slovenia beat us. I wouldn't say we underperformed, we could be coached better, but that's all. Doncic present Slovenia was a beast, it was seen in Olympic it self. It was pretty clear that Slovenia has an edge how they performed even in exhibition stage, Doncic made it smooth mechanism and overall Slovenia had better perimeter and thus better team overall. 2020's is the stretch between 2020-2029.

While I agree wee need hard nosed bruisers, tough guys, emotional leaders (certain decline in gutsiness emerging), current NT is still absolutely about the lack of talent. We ain't have a single elite guard while teams like Serbia, France have several. Overperformances (with plenty of favorable conditions) in 2013-2015 stretch knocked out the objective evaluation of NT retrospectively for you. You tend to vastly overrate that stretch and to (unconsciously probably) ignore the fact that Lithuania in 10's absolutely ceased to be what it used to be in 90's and 00's talent wise. And if we recently are stepping up slowly talent wise compared to 10's, we are still far away from where we been in 90's-00's.
 
I don't even think it's our talent level going down that much or us heavily underperforming on the biggest stage for one reason or another which contributed to our massive downfall on the basketball scene - it's just a simple matter of basketball getting way more popular worldwide compared to the 90's or even 00's, when only few teams in Europe could have been considered as professional to begin with imo. Nowadays you have to play hard even against so called basketball minnows like Belgium or Czech Republic, which would have been unthinkable just mere 20 years ago. We are logicaly getting worse compared to the rest of the basketball nations simply because we don't have enough talent pool to choose from as other big countries of 50+ million people
 
madmax said:
I don't even think it's our talent level going down that much or us heavily underperforming on the biggest stage for one reason or another which contributed to our massive downfall on the basketball scene - it's just a simple matter of basketball getting way more popular worldwide compared to the 90's or even 00's, when only few teams in Europe could have been considered as professional to begin with imo. Nowadays you have to play hard even against so called basketball minnows like Belgium or Czech Republic, which would have been unthinkable just mere 20 years ago. We are logicaly getting worse compared to the rest of the basketball nations simply because we don't have enough talent pool to choose from as other big countries of 50+ million people
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if look from not lithuanian perspective exactly that what is happenning.

Is insane to think that 2,5million people population gonna grow so manny tallents to compete with 10 times bigger population countries tallent pools to choose from decade after decade.

Basketball is more and more popular so more and more kids in other countries goes there instead of football and competion is getting tougher and tougher.

In order to win we will have to gut and fight our way there like Kazlauskas 2010s NT or Jasikevicius Zalgiris.

In pure basketball tallent we simply will lose and are loosing it since 2008 because of population of kids to choose from.
 
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2019 and 2021 it was same team.And both times we didnt have toughness just played like good boys by the rules.

I repeat again if one men is beating entire team faul him f***ing hard,put him on the ground get unsportman type faul, but make him thinking and do not let feel comfortably. Let him guessing when other punch is comming.

Was nothing similiar to that. I saw just good boys trying to win basketball game with obviuos lack of tallent on perimeter where games is decided in 2020s.

Untill we gonna find boys that will start *LUPTIS* otherwise with such weak tallent on perimeter no semifinals appereances for our NT.

2010s with all of lack of tallent those 1984-1986 born boys fought very hard and sport gods rewarded them for that.
 
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The thing is that we always were super small, even in 90s and 00's. People forget that in 90s Greece, Yugoslavia, Croatia, Russia, Italy had great teams. In 00s Spain, Germany, Greece, Italy, Serbia, France and some others had great teams. Nothing really changes, basketball getting more popular, but we simply were able to have standing out teams talent and coherence wise. The craziness about basketball in Lithuania shouldn't be underrated. Turkey may have 80mill population, but basketball will never be the cult there as it is here. And, no, things didn't change all that radically. In 90s and 00s we used to also have problems with mediocre teams. Basketball off course evolved, but it's not like day and night in comparison.

Shaw, you overestimate that toughness moment. If it would be that simple, many mediocre teams would thrive. But you can't just play bully basketball and to win games :) It's not boxing. Talent against lesser talent will prevail 98% of time. If you want to win by beating in basketball court you will have to rely on these 2% and you will be waiting long years till elbows specialists as Škučas will give you wins against prime talent. You underrate Šaras brilliance badly if you think toughness moment is the key in Šaras team. It's only one of the component, while his methodically polished system and religious research of opponent's weak spots were the key. And it's not like we won in 2013-2015. We were playing with big heart, but we also managed to perform high level as basketball team. We found some balance scoring in and out and peaked at the right time. Pacesas would be the best point guard of all time (well, after Marciulionis) if boxing would be so effective in BB court as you imagine :)
 
5 best teams in all decades was good.But 8-20 NT is getting alot better to compared what they used to be in 90s or 00s.

in 80 and 90s kids was getting info what their ale wise coach knew. Now I can live in africa and download best coaching videos how train kids.

Thats were is diffrece compared top 90s and why millions population matter way more than before.

Sure back in newspapers and radio days those countries that had good coaches had overhelming advantage in today internet era not so much.

In 90s there were no normal basketball schools in last 15 years every country has multiple of academies and so on. From 20million population even not the best coach will find more world class tallents than from 2 million best coaches will if everybody is training in similiar way.

Now after 15-20 years we can see results of those academies all over the world.

Today coaches dont need to fly to america and bring some training ideas written on some paper by hand like in 80 or 90s.You can simply download video from youtube how train kids by usa basketball programs :)

ps. you dont understand physicality in defence and boxing.

Nobody said we need 12 boxers,but surely we dont need 10 soft shooting type players either. IF we cant out tallent elite NT,we must try outhustle and outmuscle with psysicality in defence those technical elite players like Kazlauskas NT or Sharas zalgiris teams.

They shown how we still can compete with elite. Pure basketball tallent battle we already lost to elite NT 10 years ago when first basketball academy best kids came on international stage.

Going further it will be even tougher compete with just tiny 2,5 million population. Unless IN Lithuania Sabonis/Gasol/Doncic tallent kid is born and we just dont know yet.
 
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Tougher, more athletic, feistier...Sure, I agree with you on this. But nevertheless that alone won't allow us to truly compete against elite. Besides, even FIBA games are handled in various ways. Sometimes refs allow real contact, sometimes every touch is being called and then all you have is the skill and IQ to survive. At the end of the day you either have talent or not. IMO, Lithuania even with small population has incredible culture implicitly to expect good talents to prevail. The love of the game is in country's DNA. I think we will manage to stay at least borderline elite for many upcoming decades. The question only is whenever we are transcending that line and becoming truly elite or not. Thus far we had been elite for 2 decades and boderline elite for 1 decade. What will happen in next decades we don't know, time will tell, but I like the symptoms of 1998-2004 generations, and Buzelis may be true game changer so his decision will be very important.
 
I think we can safely declare Lekavicius best Lithuanian player under 190 since Kazys Petkevicius from 60s
 
We should organize all lefty NT competition :) Might be among strong, strong contenders :)

Jokubaitis, Lekavicius, Kariniauskas (Janavicius, T. Sargiunas)
Brazdeikis, Rubstavicius,
Ulanovas, Sirvydis
Sabonis, Tubelis, Jankunas
Motiejunas, Birutis
 
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