2008 US National Team

[damelo2]

The major problem is at the center. Prince is tall enough I think to play 4 there.
But, I don't think anybody in the world can keep Howard far away from the basket on the rebounding sequences, so, you will have a center for 25mins of each game... something like that. I agree on the fact USA needs Stoudemire or another player like that, as Bosh is not a real inside player. He is a 4-3, who plays 4 or 5 in a team in which everybody can shoot threes appart him and real center. Still, he showed he is able to block Yao when in second defender, so the teaming with Howard is interesting.
Still, one question... Where is Battier? You will need warriors there...

 

[mvblair2]

This line-up is way too guard dominated, and the lack of size at the 4-5 spot is going to haunt this team as it takes on physically bigger opponents in the quarterfinals and onward.

You're right, but we don't have very many options for big PFs and Cs. Who else could we get?

The US would have been better served by giving Tyson Chandler (7'0", 2.13m) that spot instead of Wade.

OK. Question answered.

In light of what has happend to Team USA over the past 8 years, it's hard to have faith for those in charge of putting this roster together.

I'm the first to admit that I'm disappointed with our roster. It could be a lot better.

Still, one question... Where is Battier? You will need warriors there...

Colangelo must think that Prince is the same as Battier. Personally, I'd like both plus Bowen. Those are all great players who could defend PFs (maybe not Bowen), SFs, or SGs, and they've all got pretty good offensive games.

 

[JGX2]

Still, one question... Where is Battier? You will need warriors there...

Battier withdrew because of ankle surgery:
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/bk/bkn/5781160.html

 

[Duke2]

hey, im not sure if this was discussed before, but why is anthony parker is not even on the list of candidates. i think he would be much better then redd or wade. he knows international game as well as anybody, he is a good shooter (can replace redd). in my opinion wade's game is too much based on driving to the basket (although he did improve his midrange game) and i think it will not be effective against international zones. on the other hand parker has the whole package of midrange, 3pt, driving, and he is also a very solid perimeter defender. He would be a perfect glue guy.
Another two guys I was wondering about was Jason Kappono and Kyle Korver. I think with international rules and speed Kappono's defence can be very well hidden. he would be deadly from 3. same goes with Korver, he is as tall as some pfs in international play.
I think these players would be great coming of the bench, they dont require ball in their hands to bee effective.

p.s whats the status with rip hamilton. was he ever considered to play?

 

[Phantim3dx2]

federoy very good insight.


yes someone in the usa bball committe was smokin rocks or dollar signs were first priority over gold(my personal play on words per se and conspiracy theory)


its becauseaa parker is unknown in the NBA mindset, not to mention i dont see too many people wanted to buy a Parker jersey vs that of wade lebron, etc. hell typical americans if they see parker on the jersey are probsably thinking, tony parker, the frnechie plays for team usa now?(i know i did when i first heard of a parker going to the raptors)

anyways we are goign to have problems down low...im still disappointed with d wade on the roster. at this point chandler would have been a nicea addition

 

[Killerbee2]

IMO what this team lacks is agile players with passing ability on PF position.

Almost all international teams have such players and they are very important in modern basketball style.

I would consider playing Prince and Carmelo on PF spot. They would be able to play defence against big guys of other international teams and they would have advantage at offensive end of the court. Also they could provide Howard with passes for easy baskets.

IMO best starting five if considering adversity they can bring:
- Paul (patient in playmaking, great in driving to the basket)
- Redd (can shot of the screen)
- LeBron (great in posting his defender 1:1 with back to the basket and great in open court, could also help with rebounding on defensive end)
- Prince (guy that would do all the dirty work and has all around skills of passing and also shooting, wingspan would help him in defending)
- Howard (great rebounder and finisher around the rim)

Looking at NBA rosters everybody would think this team lacks "beef"...but international basketball is different...and you don't need beefed players under the rim.

 

[JGX2]

I would consider playing Prince and Carmelo on PF spot.

I think you will see Anthony playing there a lot, since the starting lineup will likely be him, LeBron, Kobe, Howard, and a point guard--either he or LeBron will be the "4", and both will be fine there. Garnett would of course be the ideal player but he's not interested.

Here are the changes I would have made:
Chandler for Bosh--backing up Howard, it's much more important to have a rebounder/defender type, since there is plenty of scoring at the other positions. If not Chandler I would have considered David West, but I guess he isn't in the player pool.

Someone for Wade--Battier would have been the guy here, but he's injured. Presumably Shawn Marion is still injured too. And it's too bad that Raja Bell plays for the Virgin Islands since he would fit in well as a good defender who can also hit the outside shot. So I'm not sure who, but someone who is healthy, in form, a top defender, and has to be guarded on the other end. Suggestions?

 

[mvblair2]

hey, im not sure if this was discussed before, but why is anthony parker is not even on the list of candidates.

I agree that Anthony Parker should be on the team. Unfortunately, he wasn't even considered three years ago. Actually, I'd like to see a few of our international stars on the team, maybe even Langdon.

p.s whats the status with rip hamilton. was he ever considered to play?

Yes, I think he was considered three years ago, but he wasn't able to make the commitment. Is that right, everyone?

IMO what this team lacks is agile players with passing ability on PF position.

Almost all international teams have such players and they are very important in modern basketball style.

I think Odom fits that position. But as you and the others said, Carmelo and LeBron will probably play at the PF spot a lot. That's good and bad, because...

Looking at NBA rosters everybody would think this team lacks "beef"...but international basketball is different...and you don't need beefed players under the rim.

...because I disagree with this thinking. I think the international game is very dependent on big players controlling the offense. Fortunately, some of the teams with big men are not going to be at the Olympics. But, the US will be in trouble if LeBron and Carmelo are defending Nowitizki in the post or Oberto or Gasol. I mean, those guys will kill the US in the post, especially if their teams are playing two big men. So, I'd like to see us bring another big, muscular player to defend the paint.

Still, there are other national teams which are very successful without big players. I mean, let's face it, the basic thing that killed us the past few years has been not understanding or enforcing the value of perimeter passing. We didn't understand it on defense or on offense. When the Lithuanians start throwing the ball around the perimeter, we can be in big trouble.

JGX, as far as getting a superior shooter, I think we've got some other options besides Wade. How about Miller or Bowen (underrated offensively, IMO)? Well...maybe three years ago, we should've had a bigger pool...

 

[JGX2]

JGX, as far as getting a superior shooter, I think we've got some other options besides Wade. How about Miller or Bowen (underrated offensively, IMO)? Well...maybe three years ago, we should've had a bigger pool...

I was thinking of Bowen, but after what happened two years ago I figured he wasn't in consideration anymore. I'm mainly looking for a defender here, but one that will hit the open shot as well. Miller (and also guys like Korver, or Kapono who doesn't really play up to his potential) don't bring enough on the defensive end.

 

[Federoy2]

Looking at NBA rosters everybody would think this team lacks "beef"...but international basketball is different...and you don't need beefed players under the rim.

To some extent, I agree with what you're saying. "Beef" or bulk in the paint doesn't necessarily give a team an advantage in the international game. From an offensive standpoint, successful teams in FIBA basketball (i.e. Spain or Argentina) rely on floor spacing, outside shooting and motion/flex sets, with less of an emphasis on low post scoring. After Tim Duncan's 2004 experience, The US doesn't need another reminder of how marginal low post centers have become in international basketball, so it was smart for USA Basketball to leave the paint cloggers at home. Having said that, Tyson Chandler's rebounding and shot blocking would've been key against more physically tough, grinding teams like Russia and Greece. Remember, at the 2006 WC, it wasn't just the pick & rolls that did the US in, but also the rebounding advantage favored the Greeks as well. That's something that should be of concern to Coach K and his staff.

In some respects, I can kind of understand the coaching staff's logic; stock the team with smaller, quicker guards/forwards who possess the versitility to defend all five spots on the floor. It sounds like a wonderful idea, but in reality, the US is going to face teams that force them to play halfcourt basketball inside and out, and if and when that happends, I can only hope that the US brought the right horses to the race.

 

[Federoy2]

But, the US will be in trouble if LeBron and Carmelo are defending Nowitizki in the post or Oberto or Gasol. I mean, those guys will kill the US in the post, especially if their teams are playing two big men.

This is definitely going to be an issue. The US is going to be faced with match-up problems against the elite teams with legit low post and outside shooting big men.

On the flip side, what's killed the US is recent years hasn't directly been low post scoring. The bulk of the inside scoring against the US has come from backdoor cuts either fed by posting centers or power forwards or through guards penetrating off of screens or simply beating US guards off the dribble. In my opinion that's where the inside threat lies. I'd be satisfied with Gasol or Oberto getting their points off isolation basketball if that meant containing the flow of dribble drives and backdoor cuts.

 

[damelo2]

Colangelo must think that Prince is the same as Battier. Personally, I'd like both plus Bowen. Those are all great players who could defend PFs (maybe not Bowen), SFs, or SGs, and they've all got pretty good offensive games.

Bowen's usual defense on Nowitzki shows he can guard players lot bigger than him who play in front of the basket. Which you will likely find at the 4 in FIBA basketball.

 

[mvblair2]

(and also guys like Korver, or Kapono who doesn't really play up to his potential)

This is off-topic, but Kapono could be a much better player. I think he's pretty athletic and he's got more than just an outside shot...

Bowen's usual defense on Nowitzki shows he can guard players lot bigger than him who play in front of the basket. Which you will likely find at the 4 in FIBA basketball.

You might be right about that. Unfortunately, we don't havae a choice to bring Bowen!

Federoy: you've got an excellent analysis of what we need and don't need in the post. Defense is what we might miss in the post by only bringing Howard. International teams have beat us terribly with their guards getting into the paint, rather than their big men (who usually make some contributions inside, but do a great job swinging the ball).

 

[Killerbee2]

But, the US will be in trouble if LeBron and Carmelo are defending Nowitizki in the post or Oberto or Gasol. I mean, those guys will kill the US in the post, especially if their teams are playing two big men. So, I'd like to see us bring another big, muscular player to defend the paint.

What about Nowitzki or Gasol being in trouble defending LeBron or Carmelo?...or even some small forward defending LeBron on the post up with back to the basket?

I think it is better to have good rotating defense without bulk players than having duo of tall & SLOW bulked players under the rim just to avoid missmatches.

That is the differece between USA and the rest of the world. You guys are too focused on 1-1 mentality rather than team work and team defense. When you think about defense first you ask yourself is: "Will there be any missmatches?" We in Europe first think if players on the court complement each other defensively so they can play good TEAM defense. Missmatches are part of the game and when playing by FIBA rules they don't even matter that much because team-mates can really help the isolated player in such situations. It is of course different in the NBA where individual quality is favoured and a lot of help from team-mates is almost "not allowed".

So IMO in international arena two bulked players with slow feet will just hurt team USA defensively. But as you wrote LeBron/Carmelo and Prince might spent a lot of time on PF position so it is taken into acount that first what this team needs is quickness and then bulk.

 

[damelo2]

Well, you always have a matchup problem, you can't avoid them I think, but the zone defense allow to chose the match ups at each place on the court. Still, Lebron is strong enough to defend Pau or Nowitzki in the post. Anyway, Team USA shall work on a real zone defense, it could be interesting, no? With Boeheim in the staff, it could be all right.

 

[Phantim3dx2]

god i remembered teamusa trying to use zone i think in the garbage time in japan and maybe also in the americas championship, it was jsut pure garbage damelo...

yes boheim is there, one of my fave coaches, but they wont work on it enough because we yanks soemtimes needs our heads kicked a few times before we udnerstand...i mean lets face it int he current squad the ones with true zone experience is melo. athleticism compliments the 1v1 iso plays which usa dominates in, but we've been so used to it fro a long time that zone is like a foreign land to us....

let me give a brief example, the majority of the pickup games in the USA will never have zone defense...1 because its a pickup game, zone needs chemistry 2 even if their is chemistry you need a lot of time to adjust to zone defense and know how it fully works; its one continual motion in relation to what other are doing vs to those man v man defense, especially the iso plays the NBA is used to seeing. ive played the classic 2-3 zone before in mid-high school ball. then we tried it also in intramurals lagues during my college days, the latter being people just dont know how zone works, it looks simple but its complicated and u need good court vision iq for that, something that teamusa is lacking but is full off in man and iso plays if u play us this way. then only team i can give major respect to so far is argentina, THEY BEAT US at our own game. greece being a close 2nd because they jsut play damn good team defense, minus the acting and flops that i see from ahem other teams...cough, spain, cough cough

Well, you always have a matchup problem, you can't avoid them I think, but the zone defense allow to chose the match ups at each place on the court. Still, Lebron is strong enough to defend Pau or Nowitzki in the post. Anyway, Team USA shall work on a real zone defense, it could be interesting, no? With Boeheim in the staff, it could be all right.

 

[damelo2]

Well, I saw a few times zones in Pick up games that worked quite all right. But, not in open playgrounds, not really opened, and most guys knowing each other a little.

But, to me, a 2-3 zone seems to be quite easy. I'm not perfect at it, din't train that much, those guys are pro ballers, they have to be able to play any type of defense! This is something I can't understand. But, a zone can be succesful with guys not knowing each other too well.

ps: referees are part of the game. Flopping is part of the games. The rules say you shall not create contact I think, so... there is large tolerance with it, but it's part of the games, like the Italians in soccer, falling everytime. This is trick, but this is also how you can win championships. I mean Bob is one of the greatest, he flops don't he?

 

[mvblair2]

What about Nowitzki or Gasol being in trouble defending LeBron or Carmelo?...or even some small forward defending LeBron on the post up with back to the basket?

Excellent point. Athletic isn't the most important thing, but we do have the best athletes (i.e., the quickest players), and I think we will get other teams into foul trouble as well. The problem is that if a random Lithuanian player gets into foul trouble, they can bring in a back-up and continue with their same game plan. Our game plans and offensive sets seem to change depending on who the substitutes are.

That is the differece between USA and the rest of the world. You guys are too focused on 1-1 mentality rather than team work and team defense. When you think about defense first you ask yourself is: "Will there be any missmatches?" We in Europe first think if players on the court complement each other defensively so they can play good TEAM defense. Missmatches are part of the game and when playing by FIBA rules they don't even matter that much because team-mates can really help the isolated player in such situations. It is of course different in the NBA where individual quality is favoured and a lot of help from team-mates is almost "not allowed".

You're right that mismatches are very important in American sports thinking. I think international teams use one-on-one a lot more than people think, though.

Anyhow, I think we'll have a confusing (for opponents) combination of defenses: one-on-one, full zones, and partial zones.

god i remembered teamusa trying to use zone i think in the garbage time in japan and maybe also in the americas championship, it was jsut pure garbage damelo...

Yeah, it was pretty bad in Japan. Hopefully we've got something changed...

let me give a brief example, the majority of the pickup games in the USA will never have zone defense...1 because its a pickup game, zone needs chemistry 2 even if their is chemistry you need a lot of time to adjust to zone defense and know how it fully works; its one continual motion in relation to what other are doing vs to those man v man defense, especially the iso plays the NBA is used to seeing. ive played the classic 2-3 zone before in mid-high school ball. then we tried it also in intramurals lagues during my college days, the latter being people just dont know how zone works, it looks simple but its complicated and u need good court vision iq for that, something that teamusa is lacking but is full off in man and iso plays if u play us this way. then only team i can give major respect to so far is argentina, THEY BEAT US at our own game. greece being a close 2nd because they jsut play damn good team defense, minus the acting and flops that i see from ahem other teams...cough, spain, cough cough

Argentina and Puerto Rico beat us at our own game. Argentina was much more crisp than we were though. They looked like Showtime, man. All that passing and shooting and lay-ups. Puerto Rico, on the other hand, killed us with their individual talent. They just stomped us with their offensively isolations (and jacked-up 3-pointers from 40 feet).

ps: referees are part of the game. Flopping is part of the games. The rules say you shall not create contact I think, so... there is large tolerance with it, but it's part of the games, like the Italians in soccer, falling everytime. This is trick, but this is also how you can win championships. I mean Bob is one of the greatest, he flops don't he?

Even the best on the Dream Team were great floppers: Michael Jordan, Karl Malone, Reggie Miller. They've all done it, man.

 

[Phantim3dx2]

dont forget lambeer matt, lambeer.

 

[JGX2]

This is off-topic, but Kapono could be a much better player. I think he's pretty athletic and he's got more than just an outside shot...

I don't know about that, but he'd be a lot better just by embracing his three-point shot instead of doing the shot fake, one step inside the three-point line, and worst shot in basketball. It's like he's the opposite of Antoine Walker.

Puerto Rico, on the other hand, killed us with their individual talent. They just stomped us with their offensively isolations (and jacked-up 3-pointers from 40 feet).

Yeah, that was the most painful loss we've had in international play, not just because we lost so badly but because PR plays US-style ball. OTOH, the 2004 team was a special case because it was so hastily (and poorly) assembled, and this team is much better.