SBP Long-Term National Pool (Vol. XVI)

[JAMSKIE2]

We will start from scratch once again (again & again)!

We will start from scratch once again (again & again)!

If Chot is to totally revamp Toroman's system we are doomed. You can throw out any gains made due to continuity. Plus this is totally contrary to what the SBP has been saying, about player and system continuity in-spite of changing coaches.

Ok let's see how Jeff chan turn out. I would however temper expectations as defense is a must internationaly for wings (most of oppositions points come from wings), that is why Toroman chose initially Hontiveros as the PBA wing reinforcements, you not only should be able to shoot but a must is defense. It is also the reason Lutz and lassiter get a monopoly of the minutes and Abobou and later on Baracel spent most of their time on the bench. So unless Jeff Chan is a heck of a defender (he is already undersized 6'1 for a wing) and I don't think he has great latter movement. his chances are very slim no matter how good a shooter he is.[/QUOTE

It's when reality would haunt Philippine basketball!

Let's assume that Chot Reyes replaces Rajko Toroman. So, a new coach (again) at the helm for team Pinas. I think how similar Chot Reyes' coaching style w/ that of Toroman would be very crucial. To be honest, I don't think Reyes' coaching had some similarity w/ Toroman's. Maybe there's some little similarity but not enough to for the betterment of the team.

Whatever difference Reyes's coaching from that of Toroman will be a big concern for this future Gilas team simply becoz of the time constraints this future Gilas team will face prior to the 2013 FIBA-Asia. A new coach would mean, a different system, different philosophy & it could also mean different pool of players.

How often or how long would this chot reyes mentored Gilas part-2 training pool gets 2 practice & play together as a unit before the intended tournament in 2013? The PBA season usually runs at least 10 months thus making it difficult for this Gilas part-2 team to train together as a unit, unless of course the PBA would be willing to sacrifice that much to give the Nat'l. team enough time to prepare for the 2013 FIBA-asia. A PBA season starts at early October & won't end until August the following year. The FIBA-asia tournament usually is held during the month of september, so unless these PBA players that composed the Chot reyes-mentored Nat'l. team are pulled from their mother teams be4 the PBA season ends, our nat'l team would only have barely a month of full-time training be4 FIBA-asia. And U and I know how important cohesion is for the National team.

We have to remember that in 2007, PBA superstars had to be pulled out from their mother teams to train w/ the Chot Reyes-mentored San Miguel-RP team 5 months be4 the 2007 FIBA-asia. Yet that poor team could only come up w/ a 9th place finish.

This is the very reason why I strongly oppose the idea of replacing Rajko Toroman as Gilas head coach. W/ toroman as the coach, the Smart Gilas cagers that are now in the PBA could be recalled for another tour of National duty. Guys like Casio, Lassiter, Lutz, Barroca, Aguilar, & baracael could play again w/ Gilas & it would just take a few practices & scrimages be4 these guys grasp & gets reoriented w/ the system of coach Toroman. These Gilas boys would just need to undergo some sort of a little refresher be4 they would again get accustomed to the system of Toroman w/c they had mastered for several years. In just 2 to 3 weeks, I'm sure these Gilas boys will fully reorient themselves w/ Toroman's system. Some PBA players that had reinforced Gilas in the past like Kelly Williams, Ranidel Deocampo, Sol Mercado & Jimmy Alapag can also be named to the pool. At least these players had already immersed themselves w/ Toroman's system & it won't be difficult for them to further grasp w/ the gilas' system & jell w/ other team mates.

Whereas if we replace Toroman even w/ a great PBA coach like Chot Reyes, we will be starting from scratch once gain & not having the luxury of time to prepare the way we should.

 

[analyzed2]

Let's be objective here, while I admit Toroman has his weaknesses and is not the only reason for Gilas success (BTW call it for what it really is, 4th is still the best place in 24 years. and the only semis stint in the new competitive (arab countries) FiBA asia enviroment (say what you want but 4th is still better than 8th or 9th) . and beating Jordan in the 1st round is still better than being blowned out as was the case in 07 and 09) So yes objectively it was reasonably a success.
But was this all to do with Toroman, Nope far from it. Continuity in regardless of wheter we lose in the semis or what, is simply a basic fundamental ingredient for any national team program to succeed. win or lose. Obviously the players developed chemistry and familarity of the international game. It would be stupid not to leverage of this. So those who suggest there should be no continuity, Well i'm sorry to tell you that all succesfull programs build on the expereince they gain. All championship teams developed and contiously improved until they got there, there are no short cuts
Gilas not developing talent?(home grown or foreign ) what ? If anyone thinks Baracel, Tiu , Casio are the same players they were before they joined Gilas , , must be crazy. Do you honestly think Baracel could score in teens in the PBA straight out of FEU. yeah right. Casio while still injured, c'mon this guy could'nt even play point in Lasalle, and now many not just here but around Asia consider him one of the best point guards in Asia. Yeah right, any guard out from the UAAP like say Garcia can be voted best PG is a tournamment Like the DOHA international (where imports play). Tiu: the guys is not even 6 foot but he scores over internional guards 6'5 plus, how can you say he has not improved. In fact it's incredible the guy is even competing at that level. Lassiter : before this guy joined Gilas he was the equivalent of maybe sean anthony. just a solid defender. now he is a marked man internationally.

I think people take for granted the improvement of these guys. Sometimes success (past int'l stints, Stankovic cup etc) bring up expectations. Without remembering where these guys started. For the record when Gilas was first created the goal for the 1st year as stated by Eala was they would be as good as a PBA team ( say like Barako or Shopinas) at that time the public did'nt belive they would be that good in the 1st year. especially with scrubs and certainly non 1st round pick potentials in Casio , Tiu , baracel etc. And now after not getting a medal in FIBA asia. we are saying these locals where not developed , Yeah right

 

[acklium2]

id rather live and die with toroboy rather than chot bakla

 

[JAMSKIE2]

Championship doesn't come overnight.

Championship doesn't come overnight.

toroman is a very good technical coach. he is an excellent defensive coach. he however lacks the ability to adjust and adapt. he clings stubbornly to his system, even if his team faces glaring mismatches. he also doesn't believe in creating mismatches for his team. contrary to previous posts, not everyone here is a toroman fan. if ever, the stubborn serbian coach wasted 3 years and millions of pesos of sbp resources.

toroman is just overrated. if u cant understand mvp's reason behind firing him, then i suggest u review the history of smart gilas from day 1. toroman promised a lot of things. he got paid pretty well. simply put, he failed to deliver. time to move on.

continuity? why? did toroman's program work? did it really elevate philippine basketball? how come the best smart gilas players in the pba now are two fil-ams plus two bangko's (ababou and aguilar)? masyado kayo bilib kay toroman! eh puro yabang lang naman yung serbiano. and worse, he never ever admitted fault in any of his defeats, wuhan, asian games, pba.

What would convince U to believe that Toroman's program work? A championship in Asia? Is it a fair expectation? Not becoz Toroman was able to pilot Iran to the Asian Championships title in 2007, we would expect him to do the same for the philippines. The situation in 2007 for Iran was a lot different from the situation of the Philippines in Wuhan. And Iran is a lot different team from us.

The point here is, we have made some significant progress w/ Toroman at the helm. By finishing 4th in Wuhan, we may had gone home w/o a medal, but we gained the respect of our rivals & we were able to instill fear to the oposition. In Wuhan, we saw how close we our w/ those teams that placed higher than us. Didn't we beat eventual silver-medalist Jordan in the elimination? Didn't we almost beat Korea in the battle for 3rd place? That loss to Korea, as heartbreaker as it was, as disappointing as it was, we showed to the Koreans that we are within their level.

One of our biggest mistake in the past is our habit of constantly changing our coaches. What did we gain in changing Chot Reyes w/ Yeng Guiao to coach our Powerade-RP team in the 2009 FIBA-Asia? Well, Chot's team in 2007 placed 9th while Yeng Guiao's team in 2009 finished 8th. Meron din namang improvement, 1 place nga lang!

Our 4th place finish was a good achievement. Let us improve from there not by making major changes but by just fine-tuning on some things.

 

[JAMSKIE2]

Talking about being objective!

Talking about being objective!

Let's be objective here, while I admit Toroman has his weaknesses and is not the only reason for Gilas success (BTW call it for what it really is, 4th is still the best place in 24 years. and the only semis stint in the new competitive (arab countries) FiBA asia enviroment (say what you want but 4th is still better than 8th or 9th) . and beating Jordan in the 1st round is still better than being blowned out as was the case in 07 and 09) So yes objectively it was reasonably a success.
But was this all to do with Toroman, Nope far from it. Continuity in regardless of wheter we lose in the semis or what, is simply a basic fundamental ingredient for any national team program to succeed. win or lose. Obviously the players developed chemistry and familarity of the international game. It would be stupid not to leverage of this. So those who suggest there should be no continuity, Well i'm sorry to tell you that all succesfull programs build on the expereince they gain. All championship teams developed and contiously improved until they got there, there are no short cuts
Gilas not developing talent?(home grown or foreign ) what ? If anyone thinks Baracel, Tiu , Casio are the same players they were before they joined Gilas , , must be crazy. Do you honestly think Baracel could score in teens in the PBA straight out of FEU. yeah right. Casio while still injured, c'mon this guy could'nt even play point in Lasalle, and now many not just here but around Asia consider him one of the best point guards in Asia. Yeah right, any guard out from the UAAP like say Garcia can be voted best PG is a tournamment Like the DOHA international (where imports play). Tiu: the guys is not even 6 foot but he scores over internional guards 6'5 plus, how can you say he has not improved. In fact it's incredible the guy is even competing at that level. Lassiter : before this guy joined Gilas he was the equivalent of maybe sean anthony. just a solid defender. now he is a marked man internationally.

I think people take for granted the improvement of these guys. Sometimes success (past int'l stints, Stankovic cup etc) bring up expectations. Without remembering where these guys started. For the record when Gilas was first created the goal for the 1st year as stated by Eala was they would be as good as a PBA team ( say like Barako or Shopinas) at that time the public did'nt belive they would be that good in the 1st year. especially with scrubs and certainly non 1st round pick potentials in Casio , Tiu , baracel etc. And now after not getting a medal in FIBA asia. we are saying these locals where not developed , Yeah right

Agree w/ U!

Remember our first game vs. Jordan in 2009 Jones Cup? Our Yeng Guiao- mentored Powerade RP team got blown by the Jordanians by more than 30 pts.! Judging from the outcome of the game, it really looked like we will never beat the Jordanians in basketball.

Now, w/ Gilas, we beat Jordan at last year's Manila Invitationals. We also beat them in last year's Stankovic Cup. We lost to them in this year's Jones Cup but that was a very close game. We got back at them by beating them in the eliminations of this year's FIBA-Asia Men's Champ's, but they had the last laugh by beating us in the semis. Nevertheless, we proved that we are within the level of the Jordanians. They used to eat us alive, now that we have closed the gap, it's now a toss-up

 

[nardy2]

With the limitations set by the PBA, it would be very difficult for the SBP to form a team with good chemistry. How can the PBA players relate to the international training the Gilas 2.0 would undergo when they are not allowed to go with them. By limiting the PBA players to participate only on major FIBA tournaments would not give the opportunity to jell and even bond with the non-PBA players. Also requiring the players that would be loaned to still report for duty for their mother teams would expose the players to basketball fatigue. For me the PBA had set so many limitations that it makes the collaberation become more of a hindrance than an assistance for the country achieve its objective of getting back in the world stage.

 

[JAMSKIE2]

We need the most practical solution!

We need the most practical solution!

With the limitations set by the PBA, it would be very difficult for the SBP to form a team with good chemistry. How can the PBA players relate to the international training the Gilas 2.0 would undergo when they are not allowed to go with them. By limiting the PBA players to participate only on major FIBA tournaments would not give the opportunity to jell and even bond with the non-PBA players. Also requiring the players that would be loaned to still report for duty for their mother teams would expose the players to basketball fatigue. For me the PBA had set so many limitations that it makes the collaberation become more of a hindrance than an assistance for the country achieve its objective of getting back in the world stage.

But what if we retain Toroman as Gilas coach, then we recall the Gilas players who are now in the PBA? I believe it would just take 2 or 3 weeks of practice & scrimage for former Gilas cagers like Lassiter, Lutz, Casio, Barroca, Aguilar & baracael before they get reoriented w/ Toroman's system. They just would need some sort of refresher be4 they would again grasp Toroman's system w/c they used to master. Then, reinforce the squad w/ some PBA superstars like Williams, Deocampo, Ryan Reyes, James Yap, Delinger, etc. Of course, we still have Marcus Douthit.

This for me is a much better formula than having a new Nat'l. coach in w/c we have to start from scratch & not having the luxury of time.

What do U think sir?

 

[burninup2]

We have to remember that in 2007, PBA superstars had to be pulled out from their mother teams to train w/ the Chot Reyes-mentored San Miguel-RP team 5 months be4 the 2007 FIBA-asia. Yet that poor team could only come up w/ a 9th place finish.




this is right but the team pilipinas 2007 is more capable of winning the gold if douthit was there and if we got a lighter group..

 

[jerby2]

With the limitations set by the PBA, it would be very difficult for the SBP to form a team with good chemistry. How can the PBA players relate to the international training the Gilas 2.0 would undergo when they are not allowed to go with them. By limiting the PBA players to participate only on major FIBA tournaments would not give the opportunity to jell and even bond with the non-PBA players. Also requiring the players that would be loaned to still report for duty for their mother teams would expose the players to basketball fatigue. For me the PBA had set so many limitations that it makes the collaberation become more of a hindrance than an assistance for the country achieve its objective of getting back in the world stage.

What we have here is nothing but pure corporate greed. PBA realized that the Gilas players brought in a new interest on the league and that somehow there is a direct correlation between the performance of a national team vis-a-vis the popularity of its sport. The more glaring fact is that the PBA is getting a bad PR due to its non commitment to the national team. So now with their pronouncements of supporting the national team, they get to cottontail on all the SBP efforts to uplift the country's basketball standing and still able to continue to rake in the profits sans patriotic considerations. (At least for the moment, while people are still interested in the sport. Give it 6 years, if the PBA keeps this up everybody will stop watching basketball and finally fully support the new Football League.) Maybe by then they will realize the big disservice they did to the first Asian pay for play league and the whole basketball community. Ditto with UAAP and NCAA.

 

[JAMSKIE2]

a very inconsistent nat'l. team in 2007!

a very inconsistent nat'l. team in 2007!

We have to remember that in 2007, PBA superstars had to be pulled out from their mother teams to train w/ the Chot Reyes-mentored San Miguel-RP team 5 months be4 the 2007 FIBA-asia. Yet that poor team could only come up w/ a 9th place finish.




this is right but the team pilipinas 2007 is more capable of winning the gold if douthit was there and if we got a lighter group..

Talk about the 2007 team by chot reyes, I think that team was very inconsistent. It did well in the jones cup of that year. It even beat Iran, Korea, Qatar, Taiwan in the Jones Cup. But it had some very frustrating & alarming performances a few months be4. It participated in the 2007 FIBA-asia champions cup, and it was a disastrous campaign. It loss to Al Jalaa-Syria team twice by an average margin of 32 pts. It lost to Al Rayan-Qatar by about 20 pts.

Now, comparing that team w/ Gilas, I can't recall a lot of blow-out losses inflicted by Gilas. Of course Gilas has lost a lot of it's games but there was hardly any blow-out losses.

 

[analyzed2]

I think we take for granted how competitive this Gilas team was, and we under appreciate how hard it is to get there. With the current proposed set-up by the PBA of lending players only prior to FIBA Asia. There is big chance we won't equal our semis results in 2013. Don't discount that possibility. With teams like Iran, Korea etc only getting better making the semis will not be an easy task.

Will two to three weeks be enough for former Gilas players to re-learn the system ? I'm actually not sure. I fear they could learn bad habits with there current PBA stint which is difficult to un learn. However I still think getting the core of ex Gilas players is still a better alternative than picking a totally new team made up of PBA starts and starting from scratch.

I think vital to the preperation is how the non PBA players will develop and prepare. (Doulthit, Tiu and Sinag plus other fil-foreign recruits) . It is so much more realistic to have a competitive team , if the PBA reinforcements (including ex-Gilas) are simply reinforcing an ongoing team that is already competitive and competing regularly. That is why contrary to some I see the Sinag players with Doulthit as a key component . they are the foundation , that the reinforcements can build on

 

[burninup2]

Talk about the 2007 team by chot reyes, I think that team was very inconsistent. It did well in the jones cup of that year. It even beat Iran, Korea, Qatar, Taiwan in the Jones Cup. But it had some very frustrating & alarming performances a few months be4. It participated in the 2007 FIBA-asia champions cup, and it was a disastrous campaign. It loss to Al Jalaa-Syria team twice by an average margin of 32 pts. It lost to Al Rayan-Qatar by about 20 pts.

Now, comparing that team w/ Gilas, I can't recall a lot of blow-out losses inflicted by Gilas. Of course Gilas has lost a lot of it's games but there was hardly any blow-out losses.

but without douthit in Gilas i doubt if they can even pass the quarterfinals

 

[jerby2]

Oh and another thing, the PBA still thinks that their players are as good as Lebron James and Chicago era Michael Jordan that if you ram these players into the National Team system they will automatically carry the team to basketball promised land.

 

[jerby2]

but without douthit in Gilas i doubt if they can even pass the quarterfinals

Yes and so was the NCC without Chip Engelland, Still and More. What if the Fil-ams did not play in Busan?, What if the middle east teams were just as good as now in the 50s and 60s?

I'm not a big fan of the what ifs here on IBN, it creates a lot of flaming and trolling. Just my two cents.

 

[nardy2]

Talk about the 2007 team by chot reyes, I think that team was very inconsistent. It did well in the jones cup of that year. It even beat Iran, Korea, Qatar, Taiwan in the Jones Cup. But it had some very frustrating & alarming performances a few months be4. It participated in the 2007 FIBA-asia champions cup, and it was a disastrous campaign. It loss to Al Jalaa-Syria team twice by an average margin of 32 pts. It lost to Al Rayan-Qatar by about 20 pts.

Now, comparing that team w/ Gilas, I can't recall a lot of blow-out losses inflicted by Gilas. Of course Gilas has lost a lot of it's games but there was hardly any blow-out losses.

The problem in that team was Chot had a lot of great plans he had in his head but due to the FIBA suspension, he had not enough time so he crammed everything to the limited time that they got, he made the guys practice twice and even thrice a day so that the boys would absorb everything. Early on it was just ok but come Tokushima, fatigue finally set in. This were the complaint raised by Asi, Caguiao and Williams plus some other players. Another big mistake Chot made was putting all his cards out in the Jones Cup and that led to our team getting scouted so well at that time, Caguiao which was supposed to be our secret weapon was no longer a secret. And of course we had a bad luck to be in the Group of Death.

 

[nardy2]

But what if we retain Toroman as Gilas coach, then we recall the Gilas players who are now in the PBA? I believe it would just take 2 or 3 weeks of practice & scrimage for former Gilas cagers like Lassiter, Lutz, Casio, Barroca, Aguilar & baracael before they get reoriented w/ Toroman's system. They just would need some sort of refresher be4 they would again grasp Toroman's system w/c they used to master. Then, reinforce the squad w/ some PBA superstars like Williams, Deocampo, Ryan Reyes, James Yap, Delinger, etc. Of course, we still have Marcus Douthit.

This for me is a much better formula than having a new Nat'l. coach in w/c we have to start from scratch & not having the luxury of time.

What do U think sir?

With your suggestion, its like Gilas 1.0 all over again as said by DT. Such a scenario would still make as still among the Top Teams at the end of the Preliminary Rounds but not good enough to be at a level to beat China, Iran and South Korea who we would still like to avoid facing early on during the crucial knock-out games. In the more important knock-out games, Jordan, Japan, Kazakhstan and even Chinese-Taipei always found ways to raise the level of their play while it is on this stages that our teams falter to the pressure.

We need to go to a higher level of play, look at USA Basketball even if they have a luxury of having the best athletes in the world. They are not contented to just practice only 2 to 3 months before the tournament proper. Team Chemistry is somerhing that is not easy to achieve.

 

[analyzed2]

but without douthit in Gilas i doubt if they can even pass the quarterfinals

Who cares, what is the point?, is this a justification of PBA led teams placings in 07 and 09. So Doulthit is a key factor to success, what else is new. We all know that. Is this a point (Doulthit as key) to argue the inclusion of more PBA players or even a PBA led team (mangement and coaching) Geez.. Our we so narrow minded, and proud. That success only comes when it can be attributed to our own (e.g PBA) and we can't be happy for the success of others (e.g. MVP Gilas etc) C'mon guys let's not be like kids here. At the end we only have one country. Who cares who get's credit for success

 

[nardy2]

but without douthit in Gilas i doubt if they can even pass the quarterfinals

Since the time of Caloy Loyzaga, basketball experts are always saying the Philippines is is just one Quality Big Man away to being a competitive team internationally, so lets be thankful we have Marcus as he contributed very well to our success. We have to admit we are still lacking quality big men that of international standards and as of now tapping a Naturalized Player is an option which can cover this weakness of ours.

 

[acklium2]

will you guys never stop from remembering the ifs of the past tournaments?

their 4th place finish just proved to us that they are better as a team,as a basketball representatives and well governed team.

Whose gonna pay a Naturalized Player Last 2007?2009?
No ONE!

 

[rycorpz2]

who cares, what is the point?, is this a justification of pba led teams placings in 07 and 09. So doulthit is a key factor to success, what else is new. We all know that. Is this a point (doulthit as key) to argue the inclusion of more pba players or even a pba led team (mangement and coaching) geez.. Our we so narrow minded, and proud. That success only comes when it can be attributed to our own (e.g pba) and we can't be happy for the success of others (e.g. Mvp gilas etc) c'mon guys let's not be like kids here. At the end we only have one country. Who cares who get's credit for success

spot on