SBP Long-Term National Pool (Vol. XVI)

[nardy]

Why the culture thing?

All that is needed to be a good coach is to have one who has considerably won more championships than their peers at their age, or with fragile talents. Simple requirements also that players have good win-loss records, and are known to be mentally strong enough not to be affected by a previous loss or losses. You'll be surprise that even with these very common-sensical requirements, very few coaches and players pass.

The negative culture thing that promotes childhood fantasies is valid though. I've seen insane threads here -- like those featuring an ancient 2000-class national team fantasized to be fightworthy with a 2011 team. This forum would be most usable if it looks for the best national team coaches and players possible, and reasons why they should or should not be chosen based on facts. Fajardo has even been fantasized to be national team worthy when he has exactly zero credity-worthy records against the best centers of Asia and Europe; and not even against the better PBA centers at that.

Well to most Serbs everything is like a "Survivor" kind of scenario, if you're good ... you should be good. If you suck .... you really suck Why should I waste my time on you.

To us Filipinos we like giving 2nd ... 3rd ... or even 4th chances. We are that patient. When we see potential, we try to wait it out until success or even a glimpse of it happens.

On an one angle the Serbs is correct on their way of thought but there is also some good in the way we do it. Problem is sometimes as a team, one must have the same vision and way of thinking. So for the better good of everyone, to us Filipinos we rather have compromise and adjustments be made. However Serbs are full of Pride and would not budge on things they strongly believed-in no matter how the rest of the world views or judge them.

For example even if majority says Baracael and Tiu should have less playing minutes, Rajko would not listen. Even if management says give Japeth the opportunity, he would not act on it. Even if the Team Manager asks Toroman to lessen his on-court nagging of the players, he would not change his ways.

On another thing, to Western Countries if a person is offered a position lower to the one has previously occupied and one that he does not like, it is a subtle way of saying I am sorry but I not need you anymore, however such a move does not really register to a Eastern European, as they are people who are used to being straight to the point and it does not matter if it is conveyed rudely and with hurt.

[analyzed]

Having a disciplinarian approach torwards coaching in a must in regardless of what culture you're from or level of basketball (college, pros, international)
Almost all sucessful basketball programes have a disciplinarian approach. This is especially true for international basketball, where the nuances of the game call for it (consecutive back to back games, ball movement over individual play, living together in same camp in many times without the amenities of first class hotels) . It is no coincidence our most succesful national teams had disciplinarian coaches ( Jacobs, Joe Lipa and Toroman) the demands are different. If you've heard of Jacobs practices before that entailed doing full court presses for the full game , you will know this is true. It is one of the reason that it's difficult to coach professional players who are not by nature self decipline to play for the NT ( remember the complaints Marlou etc had with Uichico etc)
It's also one reason the approach of developing and teaching while they are still young and haven't build bad habits learned in the PBA does make sense and at times is actually more beneficial. Just look at what Jacobs did to players like Dignadice who are not by nature discipline , he probably could'nt have gotten the same results with a more talented player like say Abe King. due a PBA players reluctance to do everything Jacobs would ask of him.
One thing about Uichico is he is from the camp of disciplinarian coaches. he now has to choose players willing to take his approach.( no primodonas please)

[mangangalakal]

Not only a good motivational coach, but a darn good systems coach as well. The great disparity in the number of team assists between Petron and TNT shows which system has better ball movement.

Hmmm. Maybe not so. Team assists are also influence by the intensity of defense played. For me atom bomb is more a defense-oriented coach than a offense-oriented coach. Under him, Petron scored remarkably lower. The majority of Petron's assists come from Cabagnot (and Danny I. in the last 2 games of the current) series) So it seems that atom bomb is more comfortable in handling the defensive aspects of the game and is content in taking a backseat when it comes to offense. (I may be wrong though).

[nardy]

Having a disciplinarian approach torwards coaching in a must in regardless of what culture you're from or level of basketball (college, pros, international) Almost all sucessful basketball programes have a disciplinarian approach. This is especially true for international basketball, where the nuances of the game call for it (consecutive back to back games, ball movement over individual play, living together in same camp in many times without the amenities of first class hotels) . It is no coincidence our most succesful national teams had disciplinarian coaches ( Jacobs, Joe Lipa and Toroman) the demands are different. If you've heard of Jacobs practices before that entailed doing full court presses for the full game , you will know this is true. It is one of the reason that it's difficult to coach professional players who are not by nature self decipline to play for the NT ( remember the complaints Marlou etc had with Uichico etc) It's also one reason the approach of developing and teaching while they are still young and haven't build bad habits learned in the PBA does make sense and at times is actually more beneficial. Just look at what Jacobs did to players like Dignadice who are not by nature discipline , he probably could'nt have gotten the same results with a more talented player like say Abe King. due a PBA players reluctance to do everything Jacobs would ask of him. One thing about Uichico is he is from the camp of disciplinarian coaches. he now has to choose players willing to take his approach.( no primodonas please)

The big difference Jacobs and Lipa had with Toroman is that off-court Coach Ron and Coach Joe act like Fathers to the players who they can approach and communicate with regarding problems they have may it be regarding basketball or not. Since the Eastern Europeans are brought up differently, Coach Rajko is not that accessible.

Coaches in a Western society setting is also concerned if a player is heart-broken, home-sick or whatever problem and will try to console and more times try to find a solution. To Easterners, its your problem its not mine, you are a man you must be strong you solve it yourself as our job is to play basketball and we have no room for such things. As I said there is nothing wrong, its just we do things differently.

Like the time when the team had encountered problems like delay in salaries, Toroman was silent about the matter and did nothing. As compared to Jacobs who during his time would even go straight to the Boss and say if certain players deserves an increase in salary. In Serbia, they do not question such things and accept the way it is because that's the way it was in a Communist/Socialist State. On the other had in the US, most Americans are vocal about one's rights.

But if you go back to all my previous posts, I always stated MVP have given Toroman his objectives and goal when he initially hired him but unfortunately Coach Rajko failed to deliver. And it is within the right of MVP to set his standard if he is rehire or not Toroman. And I also stated the so called "failure" of Gilas is actually not only because of the fault of Coach Rajko but is due to a lot of factors which affected the program not to run its course. Toroman is a very good coach and we learned a lot from him however after the 3-year journey, he turned-out not the right fit and among the factors is cultural difference and communication.

[JAMSKIE]

"Culture" stuff? Wasn't just an alibi?

Honestly, I don't believe this "culture" stuff. Not only Toroman is like that when it comes to players. Robert Jaworski, Aric Del Rosario and other Pinoy coaches also have that trait. What spelled Rajko's doom was that we didn't medal. Those games against the Jrdan NT and Korea was the last straw. There's nothing wrong with being a disciplinarian coach.

Well said. I agree w/ U. I remember Robert Jaworski so disgusted about the poor EJ Feihl that he called the lumbering 7-foot center "bobo" in public. I also remember Jawo describing his Ginebra players in an interview as "isang like-a-center (refering to EJ Feihl, isang shooter once in a while (referring to Vince Hizon) at isang power failure" (referring to Noli Locsin). wasn't that embarassing on the part of the players? How many times have we seen Jawo hurling nasty & profane words to his players, referees, etc.? Yet only few had dared to criticize Jawo for his misdemeanors. Why? Of course it's becoz he is "Robert Jaworski", the most popular figure of Philippine basketball. Criticizing Jawo at that time was tantamount to "blasphemy" for his millions of loyal fans. And only a few Ginebra players or perhaps none at all had ever dared to argue or show some discontent w/ Jawo's coaching.

Some were displeased at how tough & cruel coach Rajko Toroman was to Gilas players yet we seemed to just ignore & tolerate Jawo doing the same or even worse to his Ginebra players. Double standard?

You are right, Toroman was sacked simply becoz he failed to lead the team to a medal finish. The "culture" stuff was just an alibi.

[JAMSKIE]

Well to most Serbs everything is like a "Survivor" kind of scenario, if you're good ... you should be good. If you suck .... you really suck Why should I waste my time on you.

To us Filipinos we like giving 2nd ... 3rd ... or even 4th chances. We are that patient. When we see potential, we try to wait it out until success or even a glimpse of it happens.

On an one angle the Serbs is correct on their way of thought but there is also some good in the way we do it. Problem is sometimes as a team, one must have the same vision and way of thinking. So for the better good of everyone, to us Filipinos we rather have compromise and adjustments be made. However Serbs are full of Pride and would not budge on things they strongly believed-in no matter how the rest of the world views or judge them.

For example even if majority says Baracael and Tiu should have less playing minutes, Rajko would not listen. Even if management says give Japeth the opportunity, he would not act on it. Even if the Team Manager asks Toroman to lessen his on-court nagging of the players, he would not change his ways.

On another thing, to Western Countries if a person is offered a position lower to the one has previously occupied and one that he does not like, it is a subtle way of saying I am sorry but I not need you anymore, however such a move does not really register to a Eastern European, as they are people who are used to being straight to the point and it does not matter if it is conveyed rudely and with hurt.

"To us Filipinos we like giving 2nd ... 3rd ... or even 4th chances. We are that patient. When we see potential, we try to wait it out until success or even a glimpse of it happens."


U seem to have said the reverse Nards. On the contrary, we filipinos had been very "impatient" & the proof of that is our habit of always changing the nat'l. team coach tournament after tournament. I made a research of the history of Philippine basketball & I found out that since 1990, out 14 major international basketball tournaments in Asia (I'm referring to the Asian Games & the FIBA-Asia Men's Tournament w/c was then known as the ABC Men's tournament), 13 different head coaches handled Philippine basketball teams. We hardly gave any Philippine team head coach a "2nd chance". Even coach Tim Cone had commented regarding our habit of changing the National team head coaches very frequently. Cone had emphasized the importance of experience (whether good or bad) in international tournaments as an important key for success. Everything that a national team coach would learn from an international tournament will go down the drain becoz he will be replaced by someone for the next international tournament.

[analyzed]

The big difference Jacobs and Lipa had with Toroman is that off-court Coach Ron and Coach Joe act like Fathers to the players who they can approach and communicate with regarding problems they have may it be regarding basketball or not. Since the Eastern Europeans are brought up differently, Coach Rajko is not that accessible.

Coaches in a Western society setting is also concerned if a player is heart-broken, home-sick or whatever problem and will try to console and more times try to find a solution. To Easterners, its your problem its not mine, you are a man you must be strong you solve it yourself as our job is to play basketball and we have no room for such things. As I said there is nothing wrong, its just we do things differently.

Like the time when the team had encountered problems like delay in salaries, Toroman was silent about the matter and did nothing. As compared to Jacobs who during his time would even go straight to the Boss and say if certain players deserves an increase in salary. In Serbia, they do not question such things and accept the way it is because that's the way it was in a Communist/Socialist State. On the other had in the US, most Americans are vocal about one's rights.

But if you go back to all my previous posts, I always stated MVP have given Toroman his objectives and goal when he initially hired him but unfortunately Coach Rajko failed to deliver. And it is within the right of MVP to set his standard if he is rehire or not Toroman. And I also stated the so called "failure" of Gilas is actually not only because of the fault of Coach Rajko but is due to a lot of factors which affected the program not to run its course. Toroman is a very good coach and we learned a lot from him however after the 3-year journey, he turned-out not the right fit and among the factors is cultural difference and communication.

I'm surprise to hear this, all along I thought Toroman was like a father figure to guys like Tiu and Casio. If this is the case that he showed no concern for his players, I would have to say he's not really that good a coach. And this has nothing to do with culture. It's fundamentally important that the players feel their coach supports them and has their backs. Without this the players can't fully play full out for the coach. I've studied how Greg Popovich of the Spurs handles things, he is considered to be disciplinarian and has a Military background, additionally he leans torward the european style and actually has a eatern europe Russian influence in his coaching. (this is one of the reason tend to go internationally when recruiting and drafting) , However inspite of this Pop is well known to be a father figure to Duncan, Parker and Manu. Yeah especially Tony when he was new and young would always get a dressing down from Pop , but at the end they knew he cared and had their backs covered. As far as I'm concerned as a coach you have to lead by example. this includes being fair to your players, not just in what you say but how you do things. You can speak in Greek for all I care. but you have to show concern and be a man of principle. The worst thing is to have a leader whose character in dealing with people is questionable. If this was really the case with Toroman , then I would have to say he's a failure. At the end of the day his job was to lead and he failed. Plain and simple. You can lose, but you have to lose with respect. Not like a leader who was distant from his followers or else you're no different from Khaddafi

[nardy]

"To us Filipinos we like giving 2nd ... 3rd ... or even 4th chances. We are that patient. When we see potential, we try to wait it out until success or even a glimpse of it happens."


U seem to have said the reverse Nards. On the contrary, we filipinos had been very "impatient" & the proof of that is our habit of always changing the nat'l. team coach tournament after tournament. I made a research of the history of Philippine basketball & I found out that since 1990, out 14 major international basketball tournaments in Asia (I'm referring to the Asian Games & the FIBA-Asia Men's Tournament w/c was then known as the ABC Men's tournament), 13 different head coaches handled Philippine basketball teams. We hardly gave any Philippine team head coach a "2nd chance". Even coach Tim Cone had commented regarding our habit of changing the National team head coaches very frequently. Cone had emphasized the importance of experience (whether good or bad) in international tournaments as an important key for success. Everything that a national team coach would learn from an international tournament will go down the drain becoz he will be replaced by someone for the next international tournament.

Since you are talking about history, I do not think its about being impatient when you change Head Coaches for the National Team, actually its the way we do things even before the PBA was born, it did not matter if we are winners or not, its just we give other coaches a chance to become a National Coach.

Asian Games

1951 1st place Coach Dionisio Calvo
1954 1st place Coach Herminio Silva
1958 1st place Coach Valentin Eduque
1962 1st place Coach Enrique Crame
1966 6th place Coach Felicisimo Fajardo
1970 5th place Coach Virgilio Dalupan
1974 4th place Coach Valentin Eduque

Asian Basketball Confederation

1960 1st place Coach Arturo Rius
1963 1st place Coach Felicisimo Fajardo
1965 2nd place Coach Felicisimo Fajardo
1967 1st place Coach Carlos Loyzaga
1969 3rd place Coach Lauro Mumar
1971 2nd place Coach Ignacio Ramos
1973 1st place Coach Valentin Eduque


Even China changes Head Coaches so often

1988 Olympic Games: finished 11th Coach: Qian Chenghai
1990 FIBA World Championship: finished 14th Coach: Wang Zhangyou
1992 Olympic Games: finished 12th Coach: Jiang Xingquan
1994 FIBA World Championship: finished 8th Coach: Jiang Xingquan
1996 Olympic Games: finished 8th Coach: Gong Luming
2000 Olympic Games: finished 10th Coach: Jiang Xingquan
2002 FIBA World Championship: finished 12th Coach: Wang Fei
2004 Olympic Games: finished 8th Coach: Del Harris
2006 FIBA World Championship: finished 15th Coach: Jonas Kazlauskas
2008 Olympic Games: finished 8th Coach: Jonas Kazlauskas
2010 FIBA World Championship: finished 16th Coach: Bob DONEWALD

Even Coach Rajko does not stay long in one place:

• Philippine national basketball team (2008–2011)
• Iranian national basketball team (2007–2008)
• Debreceni VSC (2005–2007)
• KK Igokea (2005)
• Henan Dragons (2004–2005)
• Keravnos (2003–2004)
• MyGuide Amsterdam (2002–2003)
• Power Wevelgem (1999–2001)
• KK Radnički (1999)
• Anwil Włocławek (1997–1998)
• FR Yugoslavian national under-23 basketball team (1996)
• KK Spartak (1995–1997)
• AO Pagrati BC (1994–1995)
• FR Yugoslavian national basketball team (Assistant coach, 1991–1996)

But you have a point if a Coach stays longer then there is continuity. In the case of Tim Cone, he was only in charge for a year or less than 2 years unlike Toroman who was our coach for 3 years. In recent years, the one that come close of having the longest tenure would have been Chot Reyes however at his time it was cutted due to the FIBA suspension and actually he was forced to cram all his plans for 4 years into a 1 year training in 2007.

[nardy]

I'm surprise to hear this, all along I thought Toroman was like a father figure to guys like Tiu and Casio. If this is the case that he showed no concern for his players, I would have to say he's not really that good a coach. And this has nothing to do with culture. It's fundamentally important that the players feel their coach supports them and has their backs. Without this the players can't fully play full out for the coach. I've studied how Greg Popovich of the Spurs handles things, he is considered to be disciplinarian and has a Military background, additionally he leans torward the european style and actually has a eatern europe Russian influence in his coaching. (this is one of the reason tend to go internationally when recruiting and drafting) , However inspite of this Pop is well known to be a father figure to Duncan, Parker and Manu. Yeah especially Tony when he was new and young would always get a dressing down from Pop , but at the end they knew he cared and had their backs covered. As far as I'm concerned as a coach you have to lead by example. this includes being fair to your players, not just in what you say but how you do things. You can speak in Greek for all I care. but you have to show concern and be a man of principle. The worst thing is to have a leader whose character in dealing with people is questionable. If this was really the case with Toroman , then I would have to say he's a failure. At the end of the day his job was to lead and he failed. Plain and simple. You can lose, but you have to lose with respect. Not like a leader who was distant from his followers or else you're no different from Khaddafi

I think it would be a bit harsh to say he was distant its just that he was not that approachable with regards to things outside basketball. Its just the way he was brought up that he does not meddle with another person's personal problem because in their country they usually tend for themselves and not depend on others in finding a solution.

He does give support to his players but he shows it in a different manner. Who could forget one of last statements last year when he said "If Japeth had Chris Tiu's head he would have long played in the NBA." He said it the way he felt and straight-forward, he had no malice intent but to some it was a low-blow to Japeth.

[dtfernando]

Jawo, Yeng or Chot all needed to have good manners when it came to dealing with players. All three are not particularly good in handling frustrations and players' physical/skill limitations. They berate the players for doing, or not doing, something that they personally couldn't execute well under the pressures or duress of hard games.

If the player, say Feihl, were not good enough, it would have been good enough to quietly say that he will become a journeyman or a weekly/monthly renewed player and that the PBA will be forced to honor that coach's/company's decision. Nothing brings out the best from Pinoy players than a dying contract. This should also be true for the national team players. They should be given very reasonable and competitive training allowances for playing and practicing the way real professionals do, or they get paid on a weekly or monthly basis only. There's no need to curse at a player.

It is true that Toro has serious results and player communication problems. But it is also true that the players he benched sucked. Aguilar continues to be raw, easily handled by Petron, and at least a thousand days from ever becoming a reliable scoring threat. Pinoy coaches are more than good enough and perhaps it is time to simply shut up on this matter. The national team will not live and die by Chot's abilities anyway. Ato is very good; but not THAT good. He has exactly zero chances against TnT using the present BMeg and Ginebra lineups. Without a formidable set of players, the national team might as well have the best one thousand coaches on the planet and still lose by an average of 40 points against world-class teams. Let's just get all the best, willing players for the national team and support it. Fantasies and blame-games will not improve national team chances. I personally am happy that somebody is still paying for a national team considering that the quality of university and pro basketball leagues have dropped below international standards.

[nardy]

Anyway there is still a chance Coach Rajko might end-up coaching Barangay Ginebra, and that would be something we could look forward to.

[Alex07]

Anyway there is still a chance Coach Rajko might end-up coaching Barangay Ginebra, and that would be something we could look forward to.

I'm looking forward to see a Matsing hang himself in a banana tree if that happens

[rocketstar47]

For me our key to success is the will of the players
to play for our nt

[lovejones]

Anyway there is still a chance Coach Rajko might end-up coaching Barangay Ginebra, and that would be something we could look forward to.

no wei gokongwei!

really? nice inside scoop!

[rearkj]

you cant blame toroman if they have personal problem or delayed of salary it is the manager who will take up this matters.i dont believe cultural problems,i believe toromans system with discip;ine,they are making alibi for there personal interest...i hope toroman will back even in another company like smc and prove himself...chot,black,sablay n naman yan...