The Junmar Fajardo Thread

[Jared03]

Which was exactly my point. You combine a rookie, a rather complicated system plus a team loaded full of chuckers then your really can not evaluate individuals can you? And oh one more: plus an inspired and potent ROS as opponent?

I want to see Fajardo grow and be a special player yes but not at the expense of sacrificing the development of of this team relative to this new system.

At the same time, i also would like to see Petron DEVIATE from this system in case the situation calls for it. Let us remember Toroman's greatest failure as a coach: he was too freaking rigid!!! Remember the Nardy notes? ANG TIGAS NG ULO NI LOLO!

That said, i respect what Toroman brings to the table and i appreciate the fact that indeed there is going to be some sort of transfer of technology from the vet mentor to the noob coach. Relating that to Fajardo's development as a player? Long run i think it pays off.

basically what you're trying to point out that is that , LOLO Thunder does not have the patience and the eye for a rookie unless he will strive on his system.

[durden_tyler]

basically what you're trying to point out that is that , LOLO Thunder does not have the patience and the eye for a rookie unless he will strive on his system.

i would not generalize or conclude it that way. Here's what we can deduct from the Toroman experience from the past though: he likes his system and he's going to stick with it. To a point, that's a faulty proposition because good/great coaches will identify it and adjust accordingly-- and as a good/great coach you have to re-adjust! This is where i feel Filipino coaches (in this case, Racela) are better, simply they have the potential to be more creative. Obviously, Olsen is a new coach so we have yet to see this. At some point, Petron is going to feed the big dog (JF) exclusively for stretches because it's just working. At some point, Petron is going to decide, "fuck the system" (for now) and go with a simple dump the ball down low and see what happens.

Ultimately, we want Petron to excel in both. And ultimately, we want Fajardo to excel in both systems.

[Jared03]

i would not generalize or conclude it that way. Here's what we can deduct from the Toroman experience from the past though: he likes his system and he's going to stick with it. To a point, that's a faulty proposition because good/great coaches will identify it and adjust accordingly-- and as a good/great coach you have to re-adjust! This is where i feel Filipino coaches (in this case, Racela) are better, simply they have the potential to be more creative. Obviously, Olsen is a new coach so we have yet to see this. At some point, Petron is going to feed the big dog (JF) exclusively for stretches because it's just working. At some point, Petron is going to decide, "fuck the system" (for now) and go with a simple dump the ball down low and see what happens.

Ultimately, we want Petron to excel in both. And ultimately, we want Fajardo to excel in both systems.

except chot

[durden_tyler]

except chot

Thank you for this in-depth post and excellent contribution to the thread.

[zuma169]

except chot

not that i am a chot hugger.. i don't hate him either.. i just respect the person for what he has achieved..

but i disagree with you sir.. if you have been following the jones cup and asia cup my friend.. it is pretty obvious that the 3rd quarter was OUR quarter.. we mostly outscored opponents during this quarter.. and that my friend is adjustment.. that is where filipino basketball excels..

and if you have been watching the NCAA, UAAP and even PBA, you would see a lot of games where teams play differently in the second half.. and that is adjustments made during halftime.. if we are to have an identity in Asia, it is that we are the masters of in game adjustments.. this is a wrong topic i think.. hehe..

going back to junmar, olsen and rajko aren't dumb enough not to dump the ball with junmar when they know he can score at will.. the kid will get his feel of PBA physical first then when he is mature enough in the PBA, you will see monster numbers for sure.. both olsen and rajko agree junmar is still raw.. but you saw in the game, even how raw he is, he has moves and he was able to hold his ground against ROS bigmen.. that in itself is a very good feat..

[flipballa7]

In Coach Rajko's defense I think he sees things in a very different way. His offensive system might look like it's limiting Junemar but it is actually designed to make the most out of his abilities and the abilities of the other "star" players of PBB. The "Horns" offense is something almost all teams in Europe run (Pro Leagues, National Teams and Youth Teams) and it kind of assumes that everyone is interchangeable "skills wise".

It's an offense that starts off with a double high screen look and the variations will come from several directions (the coach, matchups and openings presented by the defense). It seems like it's just a "set" offense but that could be the guards held on to the ball longer than they're supposed to, the screener didn't fully commit or the defense played it well or not. Almost all of us here watch the ACB or Euroleague and this offense is very anti "give the ball to our go to guy and get the hell out of the way".

Junemar is still learning it but he is thriving this early. In Petron's next game, look at how he play's off the mid to high post, how he reads cross and back screens and how his teammates miss him when he creates that split second opening in front of the rim.

This offense develops a players IQ if he has a good basketball fundamentals (not basketball skills and athleticism). Junemar is learning the reads well, so does Lutz but that is because he has experience with it in Gilas. Cabagnot is holding on to the ball too much and though I'm not a big Denok fan he's learning it faster than Alex. Danny I and Jay Washington should thrive but their timing is off and it's hard to explain here what I mean by that... Let's just say they are making the right reads but their execution of a pass, a shot or dribble towards another player for a handoff is a split second too early or late. Yeo and Arwind... the continuity stops after it gets to them. But Coach Olsen and Rajko designs sets off the horns where the play ends with them anyways so that's fine.

[Jared03]

Thank you for this in-depth post and excellent contribution to the thread.

[sarcasm]thank you DT[/sarcasm]

[Alex07]

I agree with you. Junmar is a prospect, but for the time being he is raw. Like you said he needs to improve his post moves, athleticism and conditioning. It will take some time before he becomes what people are expecting from him now. I think we are unique with our perceptions. We are making big stars from players in advance, just beacuse of their height, and before they play a single pro game. Now, where do you have situation like that?! In the rest of the world you become a star after many, many great games and championship that you give to your team.Not the case with us. Than when things are not like we imagined we spit on the coach or put the pressure on a rookie to deliver something that's not possible or at least not at that moment. We could read here demands to give more and more balls to Junmar, like he had won at least 5 championships. This boy is young and needs experiance. He was doing better when playing some minutes in ABL, because he didn't deal with so called PBA physicality. Now he has to grow within this rough circumstances, but first improve the things mentioned above. I wish him well and good carrier.

It's not because Junmar is very talented that we need him in the PHL lineup.We need him because we simply lack the guys who are as tall as him.Given that we have a few hundred or even a thousand or more pro players (age ranges from 17-29) who stand 6'10 and above to choose from whose skill sets range from an ultra slow,delata leaping Bonel Balingit with T-rex wingspan to a 42' inch leaper with a 7'6 wingspan Asi Taulava ,I think he wouldn't be noticed yet because a) he's raw b) he's un athletic c) he not yet tested.I think he's an above average player and his height is his main asset.Will he improve? I hope so but its totally up to him.Now everybody has to be patient with the guy.His real acid test will not be in the PBA but in Fiba-Asia Championship.

[basketballer]

Reading your post give me a headache man
Dont know who you are arguing with, me, you or your spelling, it is atrocious
now I know what I'm dealing with, I will not respond to you, this is my opinion about JF for all to read

JF will be a great player under a good big man coach. Toro is not bad but as firstpass poster said his system is based on guard play. His system has alot of movement and mostly ball handling by the guards. watch petron and you will see the guards touch the ball 2-3 time per possesion. I think JF will not develop to his potential when you have this kind of system. History has showed us that Toro is not a big man coach. Like Manu ball said, Bale, GS and especially JA did not become good players under Toro and they were in his doghouse most of the time. I just want JF to be a very good PF because he is the only 6'10 player that can play 4 and handle the other bigs in asia for our national team. We know he will be good in the pBA and maybe dominate the smaller centers, but I want him to be the caliber of .......... actually there are no other low posting bigs in asia aside from hadadi and kardoust and dominate the 4 or 5 position in Asia. He has the height, the pba will harden him and make him stronger inside, he has the footwork that don ramon has helped him with, he is relatively fast for his size. So he is the perfect 4 or 5 for the NT.
I just hope Racela realizes he is not using JF to be dominant and make him more plays down low. If he gets better with petron he will be ripe for our National team!

ps you can't be open if you are shut -

You're right. I've just seen my posts. I made some mistakes. I didn't check before posting. If I can use an excuse, my comp is with the technician for reparing. I am using some very old one, with terrible key board(most of the letters almost invisible), plus my net connection is unstable(sometimes letters appear slower than my typing). But you're right. I'll pay more attention.
Howe ever about the game we'll always have different opinion. I have to admit that I am always pissed when I see aggressive comment. There's this sort of people who are always more cleaver than NASA, the doctor, the lawyer, the player or the coach. They always know better.
What are your achievements in basketball? Did you win any championship? Did you make some big player? Did you prove yourself internationally?
See, when you achieve any of this I will be on your side when some arrogant basketball fan tries to give you a lecture. Serbia(ex Yugoslavia) is very well known world
wide for their fabulous players and coaches. If someone knows how beside Americans, its them. This is why I am a Toro fan. He has international carrier and he brought something new here. Some people here question his creativity?! It takes a lot of creativity to make those plays that he is using. Our problem is that we don't want to change! We know what we know, end of story!

[durden_tyler]

See, when you achieve any of this I will be on your side when some arrogant basketball fan tries to give you a lecture. Serbia(ex Yugoslavia) is very well known world wide for their fabulous players and coaches. If someone knows how beside Americans, its them. This is why I am a Toro fan. He has international carrier and he brought something new here

Unfortunately for Toroman, when his team fails, he's going to be put in the hot seat and under the microscope (at the same time). The geniuses of the forum (which may or may not include all of us)? They can criticize him all they want because that's a privilege-- right or wrong, it won't matter. At the end of the day, we need end results, we need successful end results.

Yes he was a successful coach. Yes he was successful with Iran. BUT... He (sort of) failed with Gilas (knowing the expectations was an Olympic spot, or at least to SBP/MVP's standards)-- if not, he would not have been fired and replaced by Chot Reyes.

And in the world of sports and basketball, you are only as good as your last game. If this does not work out in the next few games-- watch Petron ship him out faster than Toroman can scream "Noliiiiii".

As a consultant with Petron, what would be his achievement? Will he develop Fajardo effectively? Will he help Petron find their identity (whatever that is)? Those remain to be seen of course. Personally, i hope it works. Do i think it will pan out? i have my doubts but until we see this same line-up (first "minor" tweak: ship out Arwind and/or Washington) i don't think Petron is going to build a "dynasty" (i used dynasty because the way we've been hoarding talent we put ourselves in a different standard. One championship would be a fluke.)

[psychopath]

Unfortunately for Toroman, when his team fails, he's going to be put in the hot seat and under the microscope (at the same time). The geniuses of the forum (which may or may not include all of us)? They can criticize him all they want because that's a privilege-- right or wrong, it won't matter. At the end of the day, we need end results, we need successful end results.

Yes he was a successful coach. Yes he was successful with Iran. BUT... He (sort of) failed with Gilas (knowing the expectations was an Olympic spot, or at least to SBP/MVP's standards)-- if not, he would not have been fired and replaced by Chot Reyes.

toroman was excellent for us. we cant blame him for giving us only our best finish in fiba asia since 1986, 4th place, instead of an olympic slot. our players choked in the semis against jordan in the 2nd half. they choked again in the battle for 3rd against korea in the last 5mins of the 4th quarter (multiple missed freethrows). a coach's job is to put his players in a position to win. toroman definitely put us in a position to get an olympic slot. toroman put us in a position to win in the semis and in the bronze match. our players failed him. i was thinking then that if toroman was handling a team like japan or qatar on those instances (in a good position to win the game), those teams can get it done and win with that kind of lead. we lost by choking and its not on toroman since we are historically chokers in big games already since 2002 in busan. its not toroman who failed us (how can this coach fail us if his team is already short of talent?) its not all about results- thats being blind and stubborn. you have to put the results in a context- thats being open and smart.

i don't think Petron is going to build a "dynasty" (i used dynasty because the way we've been hoarding talent we put ourselves in a different standard. One championship would be a fluke.)

one championship is not necessarily a fluke even on this pba era of talent hoarding. because not only one team is hoarding talent. ginebra and talk n text are talent hoarders as well (special mention to "hoax teams" barako bull, global port and air21 for assisting SMC and MVP teams). also, there are teams that are 8 man deep like bmeg and ROS so they dont have much disadvantage with the super teams (tnt, petron, bgk). there are still 5 teams competing closely for the championship every conference in the pba so winning 1 championship in a year is not bad or a fluke.

[basketballer]

Unfortunately for Toroman, when his team fails, he's going to be put in the hot seat and under the microscope (at the same time). The geniuses of the forum (which may or may not include all of us)? They can criticize him all they want because that's a privilege-- right or wrong, it won't matter. At the end of the day, we need end results, we need successful end results.

Yes he was a successful coach. Yes he was successful with Iran. BUT... He (sort of) failed with Gilas (knowing the expectations was an Olympic spot, or at least to SBP/MVP's standards)-- if not, he would not have been fired and replaced by Chot Reyes.

And in the world of sports and basketball, you are only as good as your last game. If this does not work out in the next few games-- watch Petron ship him out faster than Toroman can scream "Noliiiiii".

As a consultant with Petron, what would be his achievement? Will he develop Fajardo effectively? Will he help Petron find their identity (whatever that is)? Those remain to be seen of course. Personally, i hope it works. Do i think it will pan out? i have my doubts but until we see this same line-up (first "minor" tweak: ship out Arwind and/or Washington) i don't think Petron is going to build a "dynasty" (i used dynasty because the way we've been hoarding talent we put ourselves in a different standard. One championship would be a fluke.)

You're right. We have a privilege to say what ever we want, without consequences!
I see we're back with Smart Gilas issue.
First, coach Toro was not fired, like you said. His contract expired right after FIBA Asia 2011. Small reminder about this topic you can find on "Japeth Aguilar saga", posted by Fadzki. Its an interview with Toroman written by Quinito Henson a year ago: "Toroman ready to go awaits MVP proposal".
Just read this sentence:" The last three months leading to FIBA Asia, took about 10 years of my life". Is this the coach who was happy with his preparations with the team?! Or the one who had a lot of problems?
Smart Gilas team went to Wuhan with only 2 preparation games and last minute additions from TNT. Coach Toro was disappointed and was against late additions. First he was promised that TNT players will join after 2nd Conf. But, they won the Conf.(like the first one), so Grand slam was new ambition. All we know that these players joined few days before Wuhan(bec Chot-MVP gave them vacation). Why bother?! It's only FIBA Asia qualifier for Olympics?! Patriots?! Bullshit! They're slaping SMC for players?! Look what they did, for the sake of TNT. If they were fair(the management), they would say-it was our responsability, we wanted it this way, but of course they didn't.
Chot's appointment was expected. If Gilas had won gold, I think everything would have been the same. They would offer consultant position. MVP prepared Chot for the position of head coach.. He named him assistant already in 2010 for Asian games, even though he didn't work with the team at all. Again, he was assistant for FIBA Asia 2011 without any previous work with the team?! Everybody hated him. He was breaking Toro's neck. TNT was promised to N.Black before FIBA Asia. MVP was giving Chot a new job. That's the story, not failure like you are saying.
I can't tell how things will develop with Petron and how patient management will be. I read Olsen was asking for patience before the Conf started.
Simple logic tells me that things can't be changed over night. Coach Toro's system is difficult(people say). You are already ironic, and gave him a few games?! Well, in that case, they were much more patient with Ato, or Ginebra(how long they haven't won anything?). BMG also was not that good while adjusting to triangle of coach Tim, but 2nd Conf. they did a great job. Even though I think they have better players than Petron. Petron's bench might be longer, but its not deeper(I think).

[JAMSKIE]

You're right. I've just seen my posts. I made some mistakes. I didn't check before posting. If I can use an excuse, my comp is with the technician for reparing. I am using some very old one, with terrible key board(most of the letters almost invisible), plus my net connection is unstable(sometimes letters appear slower than my typing). But you're right. I'll pay more attention.
Howe ever about the game we'll always have different opinion. I have to admit that I am always pissed when I see aggressive comment. There's this sort of people who are always more cleaver than NASA, the doctor, the lawyer, the player or the coach. They always know better.
What are your achievements in basketball? Did you win any championship? Did you make some big player? Did you prove yourself internationally?
See, when you achieve any of this I will be on your side when some arrogant basketball fan tries to give you a lecture. Serbia(ex Yugoslavia) is very well known world
wide for their fabulous players and coaches. If someone knows how beside Americans, its them. This is why I am a Toro fan. He has international carrier and he brought something new here. Some people here question his creativity?! It takes a lot of creativity to make those plays that he is using. Our problem is that we don't want to change! We know what we know, end of story!

I just wonder why was Toroman so successful in Iran yet he wasn't able to duplicate that success coaching the Philippine team? Is it becoz Iran has taller players than the Phl.? Is it becoz the Iranians are more disciplined than Filipino players? Or is it becoz the Iranians were much more patient in sticking with Toroman for a considerable period of time?

We have to remember, Iran used to be a marginal team in Asia about a decade ago. Yes, the Iranians were not patsies in Asian basketball but they were simply not in the same level as the Chinese, Koreans, Lebanese or Filipinos. Maybe 10 years ago, if RP team had played Iran 10 times, RP team would have won 8 out of the 10 games. But right now, the Iranians have turned the tables down. The Iranians have made a quantum leap of improvement while Phl. basketball have almost stagnated.

Anyway, going back to Junemar Fajardo, I expect a better game tonight for JF as Petron tackles Barako Bull.

[capitantiago]

I just wonder why was Toroman so successful in Iran yet he wasn't able to duplicate that success coaching the Philippine team? Is it becoz Iran has taller players than the Phl.? Is it becoz the Iranians are more disciplined than Filipino players? Or is it becoz the Iranians were much more patient in sticking with Toroman for a considerable period of time?

We have to remember, Iran used to be a marginal team in Asia about a decade ago. Yes, the Iranians were not patsies in Asian basketball but they were simply not in the same level as the Chinese, Koreans, Lebanese or Filipinos. Maybe 10 years ago, if RP team had played Iran 10 times, RP team would have won 8 out of the 10 games. But right now, the Iranians have turned the tables down. The Iranians have made a quantum leap of improvement while Phl. basketball have almost stagnated.

Anyway, going back to Junemar Fajardo, I expect a better game tonight for JF as Petron tackles Barako Bull.

I could only surmise the following reasons:
1. They were not suspended by FIBA during Toroman's time.
2. Toro had a free hand.
3. He had a very tall center, an athletic forward and a bunch of productive players at his disposal.
4. Iran is an Islamic republic; not overly democratic such as ours.
5. Others

Just maybe.

[JAMSKIE]

I could only surmise the following reasons:
1. They were not suspended by FIBA during Toroman's time.
2. Toro had a free hand.
3. He had a very tall center, an athletic forward and a bunch of productive players at his disposal.
4. Iran is an Islamic republic; not overly democratic such as ours.
5. Others

Just maybe.

But Hamed Hadadi wasn't yet that good in 2007. He was still a bit raw at that time. He wasn't even playing in the NBA at that time.