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Thread: Who is the greatest European player ever?

  1. #141
    Senior Member Tevfik1907's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mojo13 View Post
    I'd agree that Okur and Turkoglu were not much more than good role players. If they were it was for very short windows when at the top of their game.
    You don't let ''role players'' use the most important shot at the end of the game. Hedo was no where near a role player in Orlando when they get to the Finals. This is not a off-screen shot, this is a one-on-one play at the end of the game and they are letting him to use it, when I said he carried his team to the Finals, I meant this. He was using the most important shots during the playoffs. Not Lewis not Dwight, Hedo.




    And you're calling them ''role players'' and somehow you're choosing players like M.Gasol, Stojakovic, Gobert, Kukoc as if they are less ''role players'' than Hedo and Okur. This is the bias and double-standard that I am against for.
    Last edited by Tevfik1907; 06-06-2017 at 06:50 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tevfik1907 View Post
    You don't let ''role players'' use the most important shot at the end of the game.
    Derrick Fisher, Robert Horry, Steve Kerr etc. may disagree with you....

    Anyways, don't get me wrong Turkoglu was a decent player, but he was very inconstant on his career. He had a couple very good seasons in Orlando and may even have been near all-star level in his 07/08 Orlando season. He was an inefficient shooter (career .426) and a very poor defender. Turk was a role player for the bulk of his career with maybe 2-3 seasons where he was a top three player on his team. He was no where near in the same realm as the players I mentioned above as a Top 5 (M&P Gasol, Dirk, Parker, Peja) who were all among the top players on their team for much of their careers.

    I can only assume there is some heavy bias from you toward your countryman which is understandable - I think my Canadian boys are way better than they actually are. But keep in mind there is no one here agreeing with you and I don't see why everyone disagreeing with you would have something bias against Turkoglu.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tevfik1907 View Post
    And you're calling them ''role players'' and somehow you're choosing players like M.Gasol, Stojakovic, Gobert, Kukoc as if they are less ''role players'' than Hedo and Okur. This is the bias and double-standard that I am against for.
    I said nothing about Kukoc and only pointed out Gobert was a 2nd team All-NBA selection. His career is to young to opine on right now - but he looks like he will be a annual Defensive Player of the Year candidate.

    Peja (NBA Champion, All-NBA 2nd Team, 3× NBA All-Star) and Marc (3× NBA All-Star
    NBA Defensive Player of the Year, All-NBA Second Team, NBA All-Defensive Second Team, All-NBA First Team ) are clearly better than Turk - I welcome others to dispute this.
    Last edited by mojo13; 06-06-2017 at 04:55 PM.

  3. #143
    Senior Member Tevfik1907's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mojo13 View Post
    Derrick Fisher, Robert Horry, Steve Kerr etc. may disagree with you....
    Are you kidding me right ? When did Fisher, Horry and Kerr play one-on-one at the end of the game like Hedo did ?

    I said ;
    Quote Originally Posted by Tevfik1907 View Post
    You don't let ''role players'' use the most important shot at the end of the game. Hedo was no where near a role player in Orlando when they get to the Finals. This is not a off-screen shot, this is a one-on-one play at the end of the game and they are letting him to use it, when I said he carried his team to the Finals, I meant this. He was using the most important shots during the playoffs. Not Lewis not Dwight, Hedo.
    .


    Fisher's shot, Horry's shots, Kerr's shot, all of them happened over an quick assist or with an off-screen shot... These are not the same at all. Even then, these players are not just random role players, they are winner players that everyone knows and Hedo's one-on-one plays were completely different than some lucky buzzer beater or a point with quick assist.
    Last edited by Tevfik1907; 06-06-2017 at 06:21 PM.
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    Moderator Mindozas's Avatar
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    OMFG what's happening here... And I thought that thread about PG and measuring positions by height was already epic
    5234922-godzilla+facepalm.jpg


  5. #145
    Senior Member R1ou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mindozas View Post
    OMFG what's happening here... And I thought that thread about PG and measuring positions by height was already epic
    5234922-godzilla+facepalm.jpg
    I'm guessing the show is not over yet
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    Senior Member Tevfik1907's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mindozas View Post
    And I thought that thread about PG and measuring positions by height was already epic
    That has nothing to do with this discussion and there isn't any wrong about measuring positions by height ... You can't play PF and C if you are just 1.90 you know

    It's best to stay on topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by R1ou View Post
    I'm guessing the show is not over yet
    Do you have any suggestion for the best European player ? A Greek player perhaps if you have any ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mindozas View Post
    OMFG what's happening here... And I thought that thread about PG and measuring positions by height was already epic
    5234922-godzilla+facepalm.jpg
    Why didn't you tell me this is the guy I am wasting my time with ? I feel like an idiot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by R1ou View Post
    I'm guessing the show is not over yet
    An argument can be made that if Giannis retires tomorrow he has already accomplished as much as Turkoglu did. At least in his Nba career for sure.

  9. #149
    Senior Member okanial's Avatar
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    Hedo was a good player I'd say he was better than Lewis in the season they made the finals but still he wouldn't be a star player.

    Okur on the other hand was another story. I'd say he is almost at the same level with Williams for Utah. His main problem was him not staying healthy. He was one of the greatest shooting bigs. Desptie retiring at 32 he is still remebered with his work and one of the guys centers always compared to. If he could stay healthy he would be one of the greatest

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    Senior Member Tevfik1907's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by usagre View Post
    Why didn't you tell me this is the guy I am wasting my time with ? I feel like an idiot.
    Actually I wasted my time with you but never mind, sometimes it's good to educate bias people like you.

    Quote Originally Posted by usagre View Post
    An argument can be made that if Giannis retires tomorrow he has already accomplished as much as Turkoglu did. At least in his Nba career for sure.
    Who the hell ''Giannis'' You mean that Nigerian guy ? Since when we can count these players as European ? Bobby Dixon is also a Turk then

    Quote Originally Posted by okanial View Post
    Hedo was a good player I'd say he was better than Lewis in the season they made the finals but still he wouldn't be a star player.

    Okur on the other hand was another story. I'd say he is almost at the same level with Williams for Utah. His main problem was him not staying healthy. He was one of the greatest shooting bigs. Desptie retiring at 32 he is still remebered with his work and one of the guys centers always compared to. If he could stay healthy he would be one of the greatest
    The problem is that they believe that he was a ''role player'' in Orlando It's obvious that the people who say this didn't watch the NBA games or they are extremely biased.

    As you say Hedo was even better than Lewis there, and only second to Dwight, and he was using the most difficulty shots (and no, not like Fisher, Horry and Kerr, he was using it by playing one-on-one) during the play-offs. He basically carried his team to the finals with Dwight. And it's nothing wrong to say this. He is not a star in the NBA, but he is good enough to be on the greatest of European players in here, especially when you see which players other people are choosing against Hedo and Okur.
    Last edited by Tevfik1907; 06-06-2017 at 07:55 PM.
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  11. #151
    Senior Member okanial's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tevfik1907 View Post
    Actually I wasted my time with you but never mind, sometimes it's good to educate bias people like you.



    Who the hell ''Giannis'' You mean that Nigerian guy ? Since when we can count these players as European ? Bobby Dixon is also a Turk then


    The problem is that they believe that he was a ''role player'' in Orlando It's obvious that the people who say this didn't watch the NBA games or they are extremely biased.

    As you say Hedo was even better than Lewis there, and only second to Dwight, and he was using the most difficulty shots (and no, not like Fisher, Horry and Kerr, he was using it by playing one-on-one) during the play-offs. He basically carried his team to the finals with Dwight. And it's nothing wrong to say this. He is not a star in the NBA, but he is good enough to be on the greatest of European players in here, especially when you see which players other people are choosing against Hedo and Okur.
    I think they don`t know there is another tier between a star and role player. The between is a starter. A guy that can start in any team would be a starter which is what Hedo was. He could have start in at least 25 NBA teams at his peak

  12. #152
    Senior Member CoachZ's Avatar
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    LOL. This is ridiculous.

    Starters are also role players wtf are you people talking about. Hedo Turkoglu was a starter, so was fucking Rick Fox. Starter is not a description of a players impact on the game and quality. Hedo was always a role player, nothing more. A good role player though.

    Regarding idiotic Tefvik claims about taking 1-on-1 shots, and only stars taking them is just awful. Then again he had the balls to talk about all star injury replacement as a measure of quality. Mike Bibby took all 1 on 1 shots in the clutch for the Kings, Sam Cassel for multiple teams, Jamal Crawford for Clippers does it often, Chauncey Billups did it for Detroit, Sam Jones did it for Celtics, Ray Allen did it many times as a role player later on in his career, D'Angelo Russel now does it for the Lakers, James Johnson for the Heat. We can go, on and on and on.

    This topic has to go back on the track and stop this non-sense of including guys like Hedo and Okur in the GOAT Europeans...
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  13. #153
    Senior Member R1ou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tevfik1907 View Post
    Actually I wasted my time with you but never mind, sometimes it's good to educate bias people like you.



    Who the hell ''Giannis'' You mean that Nigerian guy ? Since when we can count these players as European ? Bobby Dixon is also a Turk then
    The difference is that Dixon is a naturalized player who got paid to represent the Turkish Nt (and shows exactly the situation in Turkish basketball right now) and Antetokounmpo was born and raised in Greece so he's fully available to play with the Nt. His case is similar to Hedo Turkoglu, Mehmet Okur, Kenan Sipahi, Birkan Batuk, Emir Preldzic, Mircad Turkcan, Ersan Ilyasova and plenty of others that I can't recall at the moment. So you have no right to complain about it.

    As for my suggestions for an all time great Greek player, all of Galis, Spanoulis, Diamantidis and Giannis are already more reasonable choices that the almighty Hedo Turkoglu and Mehmet Okur. But I'm neither biased nor high to say they're the best of the best no matter what, it is plain ridiculous.
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    Senior Member Tevfik1907's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R1ou View Post
    As for my suggestions for an all time great Greek player, all of Galis, Spanoulis, Diamantidis and Giannis are already more reasonable choices that the almighty Hedo Turkoglu and Mehmet Okur. But I'm neither biased nor high to say they're the best of the best no matter what, it is plain ridiculous.
    Seriously, I am not going to say they are on the same level with the likes of Nowitzki or P.Gasol, but they are obviously better than Spanoulis, Diamantidis, Galis. You can compare them with Ersan Ilyasova and Omer Asik, but not with Hedo and Okur. Also I am not counting Anteto because of the obvious reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by R1ou View Post
    The difference is that Dixon is a naturalized player who got paid to represent the Turkish Nt (and shows exactly the situation in Turkish basketball right now) and Antetokounmpo was born and raised in Greece so he's fully available to play with the Nt. His case is similar to Hedo Turkoglu, Mehmet Okur, Kenan Sipahi, Birkan Batuk, Emir Preldzic, Mircad Turkcan, Ersan Ilyasova and plenty of others that I can't recall at the moment. So you have no right to complain about it.
    I see no difference between them. Anteto didn't receive Greek citizenship until you guys realized that he will be a great player and only then he received that citizenship Don't act like he was already a Greek citizen before his basketball career.

    The son of immigrants from Nigeria, Antetokounmpo was born in Athens, Greece on December 6, 1994. Three years earlier, his parents had moved from Lagos, Nigeria, to Greece, leaving behind their first born son, Francis, with his grandparents.[7] Even though Antetokounmpo and three of his four brothers were born in Greece, they did not automatically qualify to receive full Greek citizenship.[5] For the first 18 years of his life, Antetokounmpo had no papers, neither from Nigeria, nor from Greece.[8]
    Antetokounmpo grew up in the Athens neighborhood of Sepolia.[6] Like many other immigrants to Greece, his parents struggled to find work. Antetokounmpo and his older brother, Thanasis, helped out by hawking items such as watches, bags and sunglasses
    Last edited by Tevfik1907; 06-07-2017 at 07:38 AM.
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    Senior Member Tevfik1907's Avatar
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    sporx.com's list ;

    http://www.sporx.com/nba/basketbolnb...0377SXQ?sira=2

    -Divac
    -Sabonis
    -Stojakovic
    -Okur
    -M.Gasol
    -Petrovic
    -Hedo
    -Parker
    -P.Gasol
    -Nowitzki
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  16. #156
    Efes fan Levenspiel's Avatar
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    it seems this topic also went everywhere...

    as for the greatest euro players, below would be my roster, from the players that I could watch. That means it is a bit more EL based than NBA:

    Parker, Jasikevicius, Diamantidis
    Bodiroga, Spanoulis, Marciulionis
    Kukoc, Kirilenko
    Nowitzki (MVP), P. Gasol
    Sabonis, Divac

    Turkoglu and Okur were great players, but they cannot displace anyone from the list above. I actually like Mirsad Turkcan more than either of them for the best Turkish player, but it's not about who we like.
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    Senior Member Tevfik1907's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levenspiel View Post
    it seems this topic also went everywhere...
    .
    Topic didn't go anywhere Mindozas seem like having an issue about my opinion that Hedo and Okur are one of the 12 top players in Europe so he tried to bait me in the topic with another subject. It's interesting that he is a moderator...

    CoacZ is insulting other users once again because of their personal opinion, as I said before he is an anti-Turk racist and he can't even deal with that when I declare my own personal opinion about best 12 players in the Europe, plain and simple.
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  18. #158
    Senior Member R1ou's Avatar
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    The fact that he received the citizenship in the age of 18 has nothing to do with the fact that he was not and raised here so he's fully available to play why the national team.

    Turkoglu and Okur being better than Spanoulis, Diamantidis and Galis is just... [edited]
    Last edited by Levenspiel; 06-07-2017 at 11:10 AM.
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    I think Galis and Diamantidis could have had solid NBA careers much like Turkoglu and Okur. I would compare Galis to the combo guard Vinnie Johnson and Diamantidis along the lines of a Nate McMillan type.

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    Senior Member Tevfik1907's Avatar
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    They would be no different than Spanoulis.

    31 Games - PTS 2.7 - REB 0.7 - AST 0.9

    Which is also why I choose Jasikevicius over Spanoulis or Diamantidis in my personal Euro GOAT 12. At least he wasn't bad as Spanoulis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tevfik1907 View Post
    Here's my 12 of all time ;

    Guards : Ricky Rubio - Tony Parker - Sarunas Jasikevicius
    Forwards : Drazen Petrovic - Peja Stojakovic - Hedo Turkoglu - Toni Kukoc - Dirk Nowitzki
    Centers : Arvydas Sabonis - Pau Gasol - Vlade Divac - Mehmet Okur
    Last edited by Tevfik1907; 06-07-2017 at 11:39 AM.
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