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Thread: Euroleague clubs - domestic players' contribution

  1. #21
    Senior Member R1ou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hopelives View Post
    So we can easily ignore the titles in which Bodiroga and David Rivers played the main role, right?
    What I'm pointing out is that we've seen many posts talking about how Turkish teams dominate Europe lately, however in reality Turkish players are non-existent on the rosters. And that's why it doesn't make sense to claim this.
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  2. #22
    Senior Member CoachZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hopelives View Post
    So we can easily ignore the titles in which Bodiroga and David Rivers played the main role, right?
    Of course not. But there is a difference in a roster with 80% imports and zero local players with a role and one that still had a lot of Greeks that played an important role. In the early 2000s guys like Alvertis and Fotsis were key, later Spanoulis and Diamantidis and many more role players.

    This Fener team, you can substitute these Turkish players with five guys from Serbian second league and noone would notice. This doesn't mean that the win is less great in EL in terms of result. Fener won it convincingly and deservedly. Still, it's not really an achievement of Turkish Basketball school, development etc. It's 100% Fener success with a merc team and a merc coach. Nothing wrong with that, but some things shouldn't be mixed.
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  3. #23
    Senior Member Jon_Koncak's Avatar
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    when greek basketball was emerging in the 90s teams would give Serbs,Croats,Soviets greek passports in one day...Tarlac,Tomic,Kuusma,Sok,Prelevic,Stojakovic countless others were playing as greeks...that was the only way greek teams would be competitive in european leagues..apart from 4-5 quality homegrwon players there was no depth at all

  4. #24
    Senior Member CoachZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon_Koncak View Post
    when greek basketball was emerging in the 90s teams would give Serbs,Croats,Soviets greek passports in one day...Tarlac,Tomic,Kuusma,Sok,Prelevic,Stojakovic countless others were playing as greeks...that was the only way greek teams would be competitive in european leagues..apart from 4-5 quality homegrwon players there was no depth at all
    There were still quality Greek players contributing in big Greek clubs. I agree that there wasn't a lot of depth but the Greek cream stayed home and played for big clubs. Turks can't keep a single player in their league nowadays, as soon as they show a little promise they are gone to be ballboys in the NBA.

    The rest are players replaceable by random scrubs from Greek second league...
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  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by R1ou View Post
    What I'm pointing out is that we've seen many posts talking about how Turkish teams dominate Europe lately, however in reality Turkish players are non-existent on the rosters. And that's why it doesn't make sense to claim this.
    Quote Originally Posted by CoachZ View Post
    Of course not. But there is a difference in a roster with 80% imports and zero local players with a role and one that still had a lot of Greeks that played an important role. In the early 2000s guys like Alvertis and Fotsis were key, later Spanoulis and Diamantidis and many more role players.

    This Fener team, you can substitute these Turkish players with five guys from Serbian second league and noone would notice. This doesn't mean that the win is less great in EL in terms of result. Fener won it convincingly and deservedly. Still, it's not really an achievement of Turkish Basketball school, development etc. It's 100% Fener success with a merc team and a merc coach. Nothing wrong with that, but some things shouldn't be mixed.
    The point is when some one claim the idea that success came by the foreigners and doesn't belong the any country's any team then you can easily strech the idea as far as you can. So, we must consider the effects of EL title. Who will get benefit from this? The answer makes almost completely clear.

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  6. #26
    Senior Member CoachZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hopelives View Post
    The point is when some one claim the idea that success came by the foreigners and doesn't belong the any country's any team then you can easily strech the idea as far as you can. So, we must consider the effects of EL title. Who will get benefit from this? The answer makes almost completely clear.
    In theory yes, in reality it's a question mark in terms of benefit. CSKA has been winning titles and a mainstay in the elite in European BBall but Russia hasn't really benefited from that in terms of development, involving more kids in the sport.

    In theory yes, a Fener title should spark the local development. Reality is something else. Especially when I see a medal oriented approach in the youth setup, instead of individual player development and medals as a consequence of that. This is a worrying thing for me in Turkish Basketball...
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    Firstly big budget then no domestic players what is the next to underrate Fener success.After a huge ass kicking some butthurt still sore.

    We really don't care the number of Turkish players.We are the citizen of Fenerbahce Republic. Whoever has this love in their hearth , whoever fight for that banner is from citizen.

    That means we had 12 domestic players at F4.We will have 12 next year too.So you need to get used to it and find new excuses.

  8. #28
    Senior Member ab_mj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny7 View Post
    Don't mind him he is a hater. He can't stand it players come to play for us for less money. He hates it we have on of the lowest budgets of all top teams. If we had same budgets as CSKA and fener we would play in NBA. Our scouting system and basketbal knowledge is 10 times bigger then them. We are in the top together with teams like Zvevda and Zalgiris. We are light years ahead of these big budget jokers.
    the years you played in nba...
    Childress, vujcic, kleiza, teo, papaloukas, bourousis, halperin, spa, nesterovic, sofo, beverley... total budget is 1,5 m usd..

  9. #29
    Senior Member ab_mj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R1ou View Post
    The most ridiculous part is that some Fener fans think that a title win by a 3 Serbs, 1 Greek, 1 Italian, 1 Czech and 4 Americans, coached again by a Serb makes this a Turkish basketball achievement

    bobby.jpg

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  10. #30
    Senior Member R1ou's Avatar
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    Except that he got paid to change his name and his identity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cemalex View Post
    Firstly big budget then no domestic players what is the next to underrate Fener success.After a huge ass kicking some butthurt still sore.

    We really don't care the number of Turkish players.We are the citizen of Fenerbahce Republic. Whoever has this love in their hearth , whoever fight for that banner is from citizen.

    That means we had 12 domestic players at F4.We will have 12 next year too.So you need to get used to it and find new excuses.
    supporters usually like to see some domestic players too but it is not a fundamental question any more.

    Moreover if an European player is a super talent he usually wants to play in NBA. It is not easy to keep them in Europe nowadays.

    Clubs don't represent their countries sport movement any more, this is the point, for this purpose we have the national team competitions. They represent their fans and property.

    And fans are rightly happy with victories no matter who plays. So I don't see the point of this discussion. Do Golden State's fans analyze how many strangers and how many Californian players play in their team?

  12. #32
    Senior Member kzav's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon_Koncak View Post
    when greek basketball was emerging in the 90s teams would give Serbs,Croats,Soviets greek passports in one day...Tarlac,Tomic,Kuusma,Sok,Prelevic,Stojakovic countless others were playing as greeks...that was the only way greek teams would be competitive in european leagues..apart from 4-5 quality homegrwon players there was no depth at all
    I know it is off-topic and I apologise, but cannot resist ... Must.... reply....

    There was also

    Alvertis
    Oikonomou
    Giannakis
    Korfas
    Sigalas
    Fasoulas
    Patavoukas
    Christodoulou
    Galis
    Bakatsias
    Boudouris
    Kalaitzis
    Papanikolaou (dimitris)
    Fotsis

    All these were in the 90s and only Greek players that were either in Olympiakos or Panathinaikos during that decade (I have missed a lot of others).

    If we include the greeks in AEK, PAOK, Panionios and Aris, the list gets bigger (i.e Rentzias, Kakouzis, Koronios).

    Please try to be objective as much as possible and try to control your bias.

    The reality is that although obviously there were naturilised Greeks as you mention, the balance was right and we were lucky to have the opportunity to invest in home-grown talent.
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  13. #33
    Senior Member Jon_Koncak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kzav View Post
    I know it is off-topic and I apologise, but cannot resist ... Must.... reply....



    The reality is that although obviously there were naturilised Greeks as you mention, the balance was right and we were lucky to have the opportunity to invest in home-grown talent.
    you had to include Fotsis in the list who was 19 in the last year of 90s.. i know all those players but you and me have a different definition of what makes a quality homegrown player..if the likes of Bakatsias or Patavoukas were ones,then we might as welll include Oguz Savas and Batuk as quality euroleague players..

  14. #34
    Senior Member kzav's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon_Koncak View Post
    you had to include Fotsis in the list who was 19 in the last year of 90s.. i know all those players but you and me have a different definition of what makes a quality homegrown player..if the likes of Bakatsias or Patavoukas were ones,then we might as welll include Oguz Savas and Batuk as quality euroleague players..
    Both Patavoukas and Bakatsias were an integral part of their squads and contributed to the efforts of the Greek national team during that era. Yes Oguz Savas is a decent example of a good Turkish player that can be part of a successful Turkish team, so not sure why you believe Oguz should be excluded from any mention.

    You don't need to have only all-star home-grown players you know.
    "Fans never fall asleep at our games, because they're afraid they might get hit by a pass." —George Raveling

    "If I weren’t earning $3 million a year to dunk a basketball, most people on the street would run in the other direction if they saw me coming."—Charles Barkley

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    In this logic, Spurs fan shouldnt be proud of their last title.Because they had just 1-2 domestic players.

  16. #36
    Senior Member R1ou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by country View Post
    In this logic, Spurs fan shouldnt be proud of their last title.Because they had just 1-2 domestic players.

    Nobody says that Fener fans shouldn't be happy and proud of their team, though it's at the very least weird to see some people claiming that Fener's title is a product of Turkish bbal.
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  17. #37
    Senior Member CoachZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by country View Post
    In this logic, Spurs fan shouldnt be proud of their last title.Because they had just 1-2 domestic players.
    NBA does away with this through draft and how players enter the league. Plus all the teams in NBA are from the same nation except Toronto. San Antonio is a good example of the opposite argument to yours. They don't really load up on free agents. They rely on their locally developed core for 20 years. So yeah, argument doesn't stand...
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  18. #38
    Senior Member kzav's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by country View Post
    In this logic, Spurs fan shouldnt be proud of their last title.Because they had just 1-2 domestic players.
    You should be immensely proud. You won the title deservedly, you had a good core of 5-6 players, a great coach and a healthy budget and have been trying for years to achieve success. It takes time but you got there and now you have to build on that and remain a basketball powerhouse to be reckoned with.

    However, as I have mentioned before in previous posts in other threads, in my view at least, home-grown players are vital for continued success of the club and will benefit the sport in national level. Better to invest these millions in attracting and nurturing local talent, as they will bond with the fan-base, perhaps stay loyal and help your national team, rather than investing that money to sign foreign players who might not give a fuck.

    Also, even when choosing supplementary players to support the core, and I will use my team as an example, why not use Charalampopoulos and incorporate him actively in the roster, than go and bring in a dubious foreigner as a back-up (who you'll pay more and might not stay for more than 1 season). Last year we had Pavlovic for instance and Pappas was not playing because of that.

    Are Mehmetoglou an Duverioglou really that crap that do not deserve a few more minutes? From the little I have seen they can be a decent backup to rest players when the score allows and will gain these ever so important Euroleague minutes as experience under their belts. And yet you spend money to bring in Bennett??? For crying out loud.

    This is why Panathinaikos and Olympiakos are going bat-shit and paying ridiculous amount of money to Mantzaris, Calathes, Sloukas etc, because the need to have a Greek core is recognised. Look at the story of Printezis, his loyalty, his influence, the fan-base following him, his impact.
    "Fans never fall asleep at our games, because they're afraid they might get hit by a pass." —George Raveling

    "If I weren’t earning $3 million a year to dunk a basketball, most people on the street would run in the other direction if they saw me coming."—Charles Barkley

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