Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst ... 234
Results 61 to 80 of 80

Thread: F4 2017 ISTANBUL- Is it safe?

  1. #61
    Senior Member Pero's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    339
    Country: Greece

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Beno View Post
    We would have no problems, if this was interpretation of only some fanatics. The whole Islam education system is more or less fundamentalist. You have thousands of Imams with very little education except knowing Koran by heart. It's almost impossible to hear some Catholic priest talking about holly war or something similar, but you have many Imams who are doing exactly that and projecting Middle Age World to their studends. This Imams come to Europe with no knowledge of the language, they're totally separated from the culture of the state they're living in and this people should teach young Muslims in Germany, France...About what?
    So you are saying that Imams are promoting the holly war? I personally couldn't know what they are teaching exactly but I seriously doubt that. They certainly have a regressive ideology on various aspects, so I agree with you in this regard, but I don't think that they promote violence against unbelievers.

  2. #62
    Senior Member Beno's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Ljubljana
    Posts
    1,620
    Country: Slovenia

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pero View Post
    So you are saying that Imams are promoting the holly war? I personally couldn't know what they are teaching exactly but I seriously doubt that. They certainly have a regressive ideology on various aspects, so I agree with you in this regard, but I don't think that they promote violence against unbelievers.
    Some surely do. But this is not my main point. My point is, the whole Islam education system is out of date. And when you have out of date education system, teachers who are living in the Middle Ages, aggressive ideology, political crisis in Arab countries..., shit will happen. I don't blame only Islam, but we can't do anything, if there won't be some big changes. Catholic Church has changed maybe Islam can too?

  3. #63
    Senior Member HashDump's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    169
    Country: Serbia

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by papalouki-louk View Post
    well actually ISIS, Al qaeda, Talibans etc are products of the imperialist USA who funds and trains all these extreme idiots even from the days of Soviet Union
    You are blaming USA because they kill in the name of the God? What if USA used Islam's interpretations to made some muslims to kill for their goals. That's the point. I don't care if USA did that, I care why they can do that, understand now?
    Let's talk about cause, not about consequences.



    Quote Originally Posted by Pero View Post
    Islam is the faith of 1.7 billion or so people. The huge majority of them are peaceful. The problem is not Islam itself but its interpretation by some fanatics.

    Also "Islamism is not a form of the Muslim faith or an expression of Muslim piety. Rather, it is a political ideology that strives to derive legitimacy from Islam."
    As I said, today 10 million of muslim wrong interpreted something. Can you guarantee that number will not grow in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Picek View Post
    Small advice: Read more history books.
    P.s. Google about Central African Republic, India etc.
    Just because nothing is in the news about it, doesn't mean it didn't happen
    Hahahaha, you want to teach me history??? You're funny guy, I like you.
    "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me." - Lord Jesus Christ

  4. #64
    Senior Member radallo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    3,801
    Country: Italy

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Beno View Post
    Some surely do. But this is not my main point. My point is, the whole Islam education system is out of date. And when you have out of date education system, teachers who are living in the Middle Ages, aggressive ideology, political crisis in Arab countries..., shit will happen. I don't blame only Islam, but we can't do anything, if there won't be some big changes. Catholic Church has changed maybe Islam can too?
    Discussion is interesting, but little deep to me for this thread. I would like to know, as future winner of the vip pass to f4, what would you do? Will you go, alongside with your buddy/wife/kids to the event?
    EUROLEAGUEADDICTED

  5. #65
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    11
    Country: Greece

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HashDump View Post
    Hahaha, Trump-like conclusion. People going around crazy and kill people in the name of the God and you are saying it is not Islam fault? I never heard about Christian state with radical Christians or radical Budists who kills nonbelievers. There is no such thing. I don't need someone to explain me ''alarming'' interpretations of Islam because I am good enough to see them by myself.
    You didn't said that I'm wrong.

    He did say you are wrong and I kinda agree with him.
    People are going bonkers doing shitty and crazy stuff in all ages and places. The whole Christianity went through this at the middle(dark) ages with the catholic church killing people left and right, doing crusades , being politically active and perpetrating atrocious things. Do you really thing no one expected the Spanish inquisition? Byzantium was a cesspool (Balkans middle ages) with wars and prosecutions waged because of some crazy orthodox nut-jobs. They even fought amongst themselves pretty regularly. Anyone who didn't do EXACTLY what was been said to them would find himself staked or beheaded or don't know what else, surprisingly fast.

    Europe outgrew this shit mainly because of the wealth being poured to it by the colonies and suffering of the rest of the world, elevating the lower and middle class from their shitholes making them more "enlightened" and less interesting in slaughtering their neighbor. They leave their armies and spies do it for them in more remote places. Guess what happens to these places. Radical ideas flourish,for them the West is the cause of all evils and since they mostly live shitty lives, the mass is prone to kill, behead and stone whoever does not do EXACTLY what the ruling class says.

    So yes religion is the excuse not the cause. If it was not religion they would have found something else to fight and bomb people for.

    In the 30s great depression life in Germany was hard and guess what this gave birth to. The nazis.

    Even in my country when the economic crisis began the local nazi party went from 0.000something to 10% and it keeps getting worse. And we fought against these scumbags in the WW2. These guys are not rooting for friendship and peace let me tell you. Neither the local Christian church.
    Last edited by Heretic; 01-05-2017 at 12:59 PM. Reason: typos

  6. #66
    Senior Member Beno's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Ljubljana
    Posts
    1,620
    Country: Slovenia

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by radallo View Post
    Discussion is interesting, but little deep to me for this thread. I would like to know, as future winner of the vip pass to f4, what would you do? Will you go, alongside with your buddy/wife/kids to the event?
    yes. if you start making decisions based on fear, you soon won't go anywhere. driving car is still far the most dangerous thing in our life, but we are driving every day. saying that, I would still rather go somewhere else, not because I think something bad will happen to me in Istanbul, but because there will be some kind state of fear in the city himself and this is not the best way of living for locals and tourists.

  7. #67
    Senior Member HashDump's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    169
    Country: Serbia

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Heretic View Post
    He did say you are wrong and I kinda agree with him.
    People are going bonkers doing shitty and crazy stuff in all ages and places. The whole Christianity went through this at the middle(dark) ages with the catholic church killing people left and right, doing crusades , being politically active and perpetrating atrocious things. Do you really thing no one expected the Spanish inquisition? Byzantium was a cesspool (Balkans middle ages) with wars and prosecutions waged because of some crazy orthodox nut-jobs. They even fought amongst themselves pretty regularly. Anyone who didn't do EXACTLY what was been said to them would find himself staked or beheaded or don't know what else, surprisingly fast.

    Europe outgrew this shit mainly because of the wealth being poured to it by the colonies and suffering of the rest of the world, elevating the lower and middle class from their shitholes making them more "enlightened" and less interesting in slaughtering their neighbor. They leave their armies and spies do it for them in more remote places. Guess what happens to these places. Radical ideas flourish,for them the West is the cause of all evils and since they mostly live shitty lives, the mass is prone to kill, behead and stone whoever does not do EXACTLY what the ruling class says.

    So yes religion is the excuse not the cause. If it was not religion they would have found something else to fight and bomb people for.

    In the 30s great depression life in Germany was hard and guess what this gave birth to. The nazis.

    Even in my country when the economic crisis began the local nazi party went from 0.000something to 10% and it keeps getting worse. And we fought against these scumbags in the WW2. These guys are not rooting for friendship and peace let me tell you. Neither the local Christian church.
    Welcome to our community. I am glad you registered because of me. Enjoy your time here with us.
    "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me." - Lord Jesus Christ

  8. #68
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    11
    Country: Greece

    Default

    Thank you very much. I was lurking for some years now (Olympiakos fan with season ticket) and decided to register today. It so happens this to be my first post.

  9. #69
    Senior Member Beno's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Ljubljana
    Posts
    1,620
    Country: Slovenia

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Heretic View Post
    He did say you are wrong and I kinda agree with him.
    People are going bonkers doing shitty and crazy stuff in all ages and places. The whole Christianity went through this at the middle(dark) ages with the catholic church killing people left and right, doing crusades , being politically active and perpetrating atrocious things. Do you really thing no one expected the Spanish inquisition? Byzantium was a cesspool (Balkans middle ages) with wars and prosecutions waged because of some crazy orthodox nut-jobs. They even fought amongst themselves pretty regularly. Anyone who didn't do EXACTLY what was been said to them would find himself staked or beheaded or don't know what else, surprisingly fast.

    Europe outgrew this shit mainly because of the wealth being poured to it by the colonies and suffering of the rest of the world, elevating the lower and middle class from their shitholes making them more "enlightened" and less interesting in slaughtering their neighbor. They leave their armies and spies do it for them in more remote places. Guess what happens to these places. Radical ideas flourish,for them the West is the cause of all evils and since they mostly live shitty lives, the mass is prone to kill, behead and stone whoever does not do EXACTLY what the ruling class says.

    So yes religion is the excuse not the cause. If it was not religion they would have found something else to fight and bomb people for.

    In the 30s great depression life in Germany was hard and guess what this gave birth to. The nazis.

    Even in my country when the economic crisis began the local nazi party went from 0.000something to 10% and it keeps getting worse. And we fought against these scumbags in the WW2. These guys are not rooting for friendship and peace let me tell you. Neither the local Christian church.
    One of the problems in modern world, especially in Europe, is, we want to be political correct no matter what. We're all to blame, we're all the same, there's nobody's fault, there's nothing to be done, the killers are victims...We can speak or argue for 100 years who is to blame, imperialists or communists, reach or poor, young or old... but on thing will remain the same. Islam has a big problem.

  10. #70
    Senior Member HashDump's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    169
    Country: Serbia

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Heretic View Post
    He did say you are wrong and I kinda agree with him.
    People are going bonkers doing shitty and crazy stuff in all ages and places. The whole Christianity went through this at the middle(dark) ages with the catholic church killing people left and right, doing crusades , being politically active and perpetrating atrocious things. Do you really thing no one expected the Spanish inquisition? Byzantium was a cesspool (Balkans middle ages) with wars and prosecutions waged because of some crazy orthodox nut-jobs. They even fought amongst themselves pretty regularly. Anyone who didn't do EXACTLY what was been said to them would find himself staked or beheaded or don't know what else, surprisingly fast.

    Europe outgrew this shit mainly because of the wealth being poured to it by the colonies and suffering of the rest of the world, elevating the lower and middle class from their shitholes making them more "enlightened" and less interesting in slaughtering their neighbor. They leave their armies and spies do it for them in more remote places. Guess what happens to these places. Radical ideas flourish,for them the West is the cause of all evils and since they mostly live shitty lives, the mass is prone to kill, behead and stone whoever does not do EXACTLY what the ruling class says.

    So yes religion is the excuse not the cause. If it was not religion they would have found something else to fight and bomb people for.

    In the 30s great depression life in Germany was hard and guess what this gave birth to. The nazis.

    Even in my country when the economic crisis began the local nazi party went from 0.000something to 10% and it keeps getting worse. And we fought against these scumbags in the WW2. These guys are not rooting for friendship and peace let me tell you. Neither the local Christian church.
    You started a lot of topics here, and answered none to what I said. I will finish with this discussion and let people make their own judges what is right or bad. I say this because of future of our children and grand children who will face much bigger issues with Islam. We all know muslim's birthrate and who will be majority in the near future. Think about that.

    Bible Matthew 5:44: But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.

    Quran 2:191: “And slay them wherever you come upon them, and expel them from where they expelled you; persecution is more grievous than slaying. But fight them not by the Holy Mosque until they should fight you there; then, if they fight you, slay them — such is the recompense of unbelievers, but if they give over, surely Allah is All-forgiving, All-compassionate. Fight them, till there is no persecution and the religion is Allah’s; then if they give over, there shall be no enmity save for evildoers.”

    Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

    Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion is all for Allah
    etc....

    I gave answer to thread is it safe F4 in Istanbul and tried to give answer why is not safe. I will not go further.
    "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me." - Lord Jesus Christ

  11. #71
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    11
    Country: Greece

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HashDump View Post
    You started a lot of topics here, and answered none to what I said. I will finish with this discussion and let people make their own judges what is right or bad. I say this because of future of our children and grand children who will face much bigger issues with Islam. We all know muslim's birthrate and who will be majority in the near future. Think about that.

    I gave answer to thread is it safe F4 in Istanbul and tried to give answer why is not safe. I will not go further.

    We are in the period of great peace. There was never in the human history such a great time period with practically no wars between major powers and the national conflicts are way too low by population percentage standards.
    In periods of peace the economical and social pressures rise slowly till it's time for a big casualty war again. Extremists can only fight guerrilla wars and use terror tactics. They are not a real threat for sovereignties. They are only a threat to stability. No western country will turn to islamic state. There are just going to cause casualties until two great powers collide and really start a serious war.


    PS I also believe that F4 shouldn't be in the city this year (even though as an Olympiakos fan I only have great memories) but I also think it's a bit too late to change it. Something extreme has to happen in order to pull it from there

  12. #72
    Senior Member R1ou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    1,249
    Country: Greece

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Heretic View Post
    PS I also believe that F4 shouldn't be in the city this year (even though as an Olympiakos fan I only have great memories) but I also think it's a bit too late to change it. Something extreme has to happen in order to pull it from there
    Yet it another terror attack happened in Turkey earlier today.

    As Picek said, FIBA didn't even consider about giving a second chance to Ukraine, even though this part of the country was never under a real threat. They are not going to move it, neither Eurobasket. It was obvious from the beginning when they picked the same city in a 5 year period while a couple of Turkish teams were on the rise.

  13. #73
    Senior Member Efesdxb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Baku / Azerbaijan
    Posts
    743
    Country: Turkey

    Default

    As a Turkish citizen living out of Turkey, there is a big dilemma for me:
    1. For safety reasons, i believe F4 and Eurobasket should be moved out of Turkey.
    2. If we remove these events out of Turkey, this will be a success for terrorists and terrorism.
    I wouldn't risk a single person's life and would make a choice for the first option.

    For those who posts about Islam and other religions; they should be well into Holy Books to judge.
    I am a Muslim and read Qoran, if you just pick a sentence out of whole paragraph, it might sound as it is shown above. If you read whole paragraph it is totally different.
    I can pick similiar sentences from Bible or the Old Testament and you can start thinking Bible or Old Testament is the cause of terror... Therefore don't blame any religion for any inhuman treatment (diabolical).
    Go Efes Pilsen - Go Turkey

  14. #74
    Administrator Levenspiel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Szeged, Hungary
    Posts
    5,361
    Country: Turkey

    Default

    i guess it was inevitable to side-step into islam discussion on this thread, the purpose of which is to discuss security risk of a particular event.

    Islam is the newest religion between the three big religions that came out of middle east, and it's 1400 years old. That is pretty fucking old, for modern person, in this age, like all the others. No reasonable person today takes the claims of Bible or Quran seriously on natural phenomena, universe in general, or public laws. They are severely outdated and mostly plain wrong. Who still believes that the world is 6000 years old?

    What happens is that faithful but reasonable people accommodate. They simply ignore parts of these books and follow it on a spiritual level. This is the case for Christians as far as i can observe, and it was the case for Islam when they made tremendous advancements on positive sciences, before the western civilization boomed. it is them who translated and passed even the ancient Greek writings to the western world. How could they do that? They kept an open-mind, they interpreted Quran humanely. and they did it more than a thousand years ago! members of the same religion. But then a strict sect of Islam took over, they disposed all free-thinkers and established their literal version of Islam as the only one. They practically closed the muslim mind. As I referred previously, the book "the closing of the muslim mind" explains this story quite well. Same religion, but completely different outcomes.

    People in most of the world, especially the ones not in middle east, still followed their reasonable instincts and saw these rules only as guidelines. Turkey was an example of that. Religion was completely kept out of state-business and laws since 1923, its foundation. People had a loose interpretation of it in daily life. But within the last 10-15 years, the country has experienced a gradual and extremely intense brain-washing process. The social layers are deliberately separated. Erdogan's almost every speech is aimed to increase hate. He and his followers tried hard to close Turkish mind. and I'm afraid they're getting there. Now we have ISIS members from Turkey! A 22-year old policeman from a modern family killed a foreign ambassador in the name of islam! People got attacked in new years celebration and many people applauded this atrocity on social media! That's a huge swing in country's mental status.

    Now we have a country with millions of potential radical militants. They're created, and it's becoming more dangerous every day. I have a very pessimistic view on my country's future.

    As an ex-muslim who abandoned the religion years ago, I have serious issues with islam. It actually provides a dangerously convenient martyrdom scheme for those suicide bombers. But given the circumstances I'm sure this lunacy would still have happened if they had a spagetti religion.
    5 out 6 scientists say Russian roulette is safe.

  15. #75
    Senior Member Cuneyt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    1,053
    Country: Turkey

    Default

    Let's move it IF YOU CAN GUARANTEE that it will not happen in Athens, Belgrade, Paris, Moscow, Milan etc.
    London, Paris, Berlin, Amsterdam, New York, Oslo...
    Fact is nowhere is safe when lunatics that are not afraid of killing themselves along with others, are roaming the world.

  16. #76
    Senior Member CoachZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    2,629
    Country: Serbia

    Default

    OK. Move it to Belgrade. I bet my life nothing will happen. You can cut off my head ISIS style if it does.
    Gangbanga from Palanga!


  17. #77
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    14
    Country: Greece

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cuneyt View Post
    Let's move it IF YOU CAN GUARANTEE that it will not happen in Athens, Belgrade, Paris, Moscow, Milan etc.
    London, Paris, Berlin, Amsterdam, New York, Oslo...
    Fact is nowhere is safe when lunatics that are not afraid of killing themselves along with others, are roaming the world.
    Noone can guarantee 100% safety for the fans. But some places are more safe than others. Istanbul and Turkey had many terrorist attacks in the last 2 years.

  18. #78
    Senior Member janketa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    1,514

    Default

    Istanbul is safe for F4 just like any other city in Europe.
    But if we are talking about restaurants and discotheques, then everyone who come needs to calculate if it is smart to go or not.

  19. #79
    Senior Member janketa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    1,514

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Levenspiel View Post
    i guess it was inevitable to side-step into islam discussion on this thread, the purpose of which is to discuss security risk of a particular event.

    Islam is the newest religion between the three big religions that came out of middle east, and it's 1400 years old. That is pretty fucking old, for modern person, in this age, like all the others. No reasonable person today takes the claims of Bible or Quran seriously on natural phenomena, universe in general, or public laws. They are severely outdated and mostly plain wrong. Who still believes that the world is 6000 years old?

    What happens is that faithful but reasonable people accommodate. They simply ignore parts of these books and follow it on a spiritual level. This is the case for Christians as far as i can observe, and it was the case for Islam when they made tremendous advancements on positive sciences, before the western civilization boomed. it is them who translated and passed even the ancient Greek writings to the western world. How could they do that? They kept an open-mind, they interpreted Quran humanely. and they did it more than a thousand years ago! members of the same religion. But then a strict sect of Islam took over, they disposed all free-thinkers and established their literal version of Islam as the only one. They practically closed the muslim mind. As I referred previously, the book "the closing of the muslim mind" explains this story quite well. Same religion, but completely different outcomes.

    People in most of the world, especially the ones not in middle east, still followed their reasonable instincts and saw these rules only as guidelines. Turkey was an example of that. Religion was completely kept out of state-business and laws since 1923, its foundation. People had a loose interpretation of it in daily life. But within the last 10-15 years, the country has experienced a gradual and extremely intense brain-washing process. The social layers are deliberately separated. Erdogan's almost every speech is aimed to increase hate. He and his followers tried hard to close Turkish mind. and I'm afraid they're getting there. Now we have ISIS members from Turkey! A 22-year old policeman from a modern family killed a foreign ambassador in the name of islam! People got attacked in new years celebration and many people applauded this atrocity on social media! That's a huge swing in country's mental status.

    Now we have a country with millions of potential radical militants. They're created, and it's becoming more dangerous every day. I have a very pessimistic view on my country's future.

    As an ex-muslim who abandoned the religion years ago, I have serious issues with islam. It actually provides a dangerously convenient martyrdom scheme for those suicide bombers. But given the circumstances I'm sure this lunacy would still have happened if they had a spagetti religion.
    I see you are pessimist regarding future and in long post you touched many serious and historical issues.
    Just one thing you didn't mentioned to be honest at least.

    Libya, you heard for that country and their leader Gadafi? Of course you did. You know what happened and who opened the door for apocalypse. Iraq Syria...
    Similar things were prepared for Turkey. There is not black and white picture in this moment, situation is more complicated then saying Erdogan is guilty for everything. The biggest evil in modern age is terrorism and Turkey is the biggest victim now. But root of all are somewhere else.
    We are paying the price now of some big heads mistakes and misjudgements. At the end they recognized that, but to late for milions that suffer.

  20. #80
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    260
    Country: Yugoslavia

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by janketa View Post
    I see you are pessimist regarding future and in long post you touched many serious and historical issues.
    Just one thing you didn't mentioned to be honest at least.

    Libya, you heard for that country and their leader Gadafi? Of course you did. You know what happened and who opened the door for apocalypse. Iraq Syria...
    Similar things were prepared for Turkey. There is not black and white picture in this moment, situation is more complicated then saying Erdogan is guilty for everything. The biggest evil in modern age is terrorism and Turkey is the biggest victim now. But root of all are somewhere else.
    We are paying the price now of some big heads mistakes and misjudgements. At the end they recognized that, but to late for milions that suffer.
    Arab spring (in Egypt) was basically aided by one European activist organization to get access on the dark net. One of the leaders of that organization bragged about it to the reporter who wrote it in a book and published it. I won't speak in details about it.

    For me, it boils down to which leader is adequate for the establishment. If the regime is not welcomed you can bet there is going to be tensions. Religion in such instances is just a tool, because Muslims are deeply religious people. If it was something in Europe it would be probably something on the nationalistic basis.

Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst ... 234

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •