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Thread: The Best European Player Ever

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    Default The Best European Player Ever

    (originally posted by FRANKY 13, 12-25-2003, 10:23 AM)

    FRANKY 13
    12-25-2003, 10:23 AM

    ITS A LIST FOUND IN A SPANISH SITE[WWW.ZONE131.COM].IT SEEMS TO ME RATHER OBJECTIVE.THERE ARE STILL SOME PLAYERS MISSING[VILLACAMPA,CHRISTODOULOU...],A SPECIALLY BEFORE THE 80'S BUT...ANYWAY,ITS NOTHING OFFICIAL.

    PLAY MAYKER [1]
    1.Aleksandar Djordjevic (1.88 ex-YUG (SERBIA)
    2.Tony Parker (1.84) FRANCIA
    3. Sergei Belov (1.86) ex-URSS (Rusia)
    4.Panayotis Yannakis (1.95) GRECIA
    5. Valdis Valters (1.91) ex-URSS (Letonia)
    6. Juan Antonio Corbalán (1.84) ESPAÑA
    7. Zoran Slavnic (1.86)YUGOSLAVIA (Serbia)
    8. Antoine Rigaudeau (2.00) FRANCIA
    9. Marko Jaric (2.00) YUGOSLAVIA (Serbia)
    10. Pier Luigi Marzoratti (1.82) ITALIA

    SHOOTING GUARD [2]
    1.Drazen Petrovic (1.99 ex-YUG (CROACIA)
    2.Nikos Gallis (1.86) GRECIA
    3.Predrag Danilovic 2.01 ex-YUG Serbia
    4.Sarunas Marciulionis (1.96) ex-URRS (LITUANIA)
    5.Dragan Kikanovic (1.99) ex-YUG (SERBIA);
    6.Mirza Delibasic (2.00) ex-YUG (BOSNIA)
    7.Velimir Perasovic (1.97) ex-YUG (CROACIA)
    8. Rimas Kurtinaitis (1.96) ex-URSS (Lituania)
    9. Valdemaras Homicius (1.95 ex-URSS (Lituania)
    10. Dorom Yamshi (1.97) ISRAEL

    SMALL FORWARD [3]
    1.Predrag Stojakovic (2.06) YUG (SERBIA)
    2.Tony Kukoc (2.07) ex-YUG (CROACIA)
    3.Dejan Bodiroga (2.05) YUG (SERBIA)
    4.Detlef Schrempf (2.08 ALEMANIA
    5.Drazen Dalipagic (1.99) ex-YUG (SERBIA)
    6. Antonello Riva (1.96 ITALIA
    7.Miki Berkowicz (1.99) ISRAEL
    8.Valery Tikhonenko
    9. Zarko Paspalj (2.01 ex-YUG (Montenegro)
    10. Juan Antonio San Epifanio (1.9 ESPAÑA

    POWER FORWARD [4]
    1.Dirk Nowitzi (2.13) ALEMANIA
    2.Dino Radja (2.10) ex-YUG (CROACIA)
    3.Pau Gasol (2.15) ESPAÑA
    4.Radivoj Korac (2.06) ex-YUG (SERBIA)
    5.Alexander Volkov (2.01 ex-URSS (UCRANIA)
    6. Zoran Savic (2.05) ex-YUG (SERBIA)
    7. Predrag Drobnjak (2.10) YUGOSLAVIA (Serbia)
    8. Gregor ----a (2.15) ITALIA/ESLOVENIA
    9. Andro Knego (2.09) ex-YUG (Croacia)
    10. Dejan Tomasevic (2.06 YUGOSLAVIA (Serbia)

    CENTER [5]
    1.Arvydas Sabonis (2.20) ex-URSS (LITUANIA)
    2.Vlade Divac (2.13) ex-YUG (SERBIA)
    3.Kresimir Cosic (2.11) ex-YUG (CROACIA)
    4.Dino Meneguin (2.13) ITALIA
    5.Zydrunas Ilgauskas (2.21) LITUANIA
    6.Fernando Martín (2.06) ESPAÑA
    7. Zeljko Rebraca (2.11) YUGOSLAVIA (Serbia)
    8. Radoslav Nesterovic (2.14) ESLOVENIA
    9. Vladimir Tkachenko (2.21) ex-URSS
    10. Panayotis Fassoulas (2.13) GRECIA
    Matiz
    12-26-2003, 02:23 AM

    Wow- great list. Suprisingly objective imo.
    I would change only two things:
    1. I think Marciulionis was a better player than Danilovic, which honestly I don't know how he deserved such high position on that list. I used to be Danilovic's big fan but gotta be real.

    2. No way Drobnjak is infront of ----a, I mean he is a ----a ()but he achieved to many player of the year awards and Euroleague mvp's to be behind Drobnjak.
    FRANKY 13
    12-26-2003, 02:32 AM

    YEAH,I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU ABOUT DROBNJAK.IN FACT,I WOULDNT HAVE HIM ON THE LIST AT ALL I SUPPOSE.I THINK THAT OBJECTIVLY FANIS CHRISTODOULOU WAS A MUCH BETTER PLAYER.

    CONCERNING THE COMPARAISON DANILOVIC-MARCIULIONIS,I THINK THAT,EVEN IF THEY ARE BOTH GREAT PLAYERS,I WOULD PLACE MARCIULIONIS IN THE THIRD POSITION.BUT I'D KEEP SASHA FOURTH.

    PS.I HOPE EVERYBODY UNDERSTANDS THAT ----A IS ON THE LIST
    Matiz
    12-26-2003, 02:55 AM

    Imo Dragan Kicanovic and Mirza Delibasic had a bigger impact on europeans basketball than Danilovic. Even now (they are retired already for 20 years) more people would recognize Dragan and Mirza than Danilovic. I would place Danilovic on 6th spot
    Juan Carlos Nadal
    12-26-2003, 03:19 AM

    Wait until SEOK finds out that you are talking like that about Danilovic!

    FRANKY 13
    12-26-2003, 03:36 AM

    OK,WE CAN SURELY COMPARE DANILOVIC WITH KICANOVIC AND DELIBASIC.I SUPPOSE THOUGH I WOULD PLACE HIM ABOVE THEM BECAUSE I SAW HIM PLAY AND I REALIZED THAT HE WASNT ONLY TALENTED,BUT THAT HE HAD A TRUE WINNING SPIRIT.I'M SAYING THAT NOT BECAUSE I THINK THAT KICANOVIC AND DELIBASIC HAD NOT THIS SPIRIT,BUT SIMPLY BECAUSE I NEVER SAW THEM PLAY.SO ITS SOMETHING PURELY SUBJECTIVE.

    I TOLD THAT THERE ARE SOME THINGS THAT COULD BE DISCUSSED ABOUT THIS LIST.BUT I SUPPOSE THE 2 FIRST OF EACH POSITION ARE OK EXCEPT TONY PARKER,WHICH I CONSIDER AS AN EXCELLENT PLAYER,BUT WHO SURELY HAS YET LESS IMPACT ON EUROPEAN BASKETBALL THAN SERGEI BELOV.
    Matiz
    12-26-2003, 04:54 AM

    Everybody has an opinion about that list which can not please all posters on this forum- I think ,as i said before, that list is very objective.

    Kicanovic and Delibasic could be overhyped- somekind part of ex-Yugo mithology. Afterall I think they never played abroad (could be wrong).

    Parker is only 21 years old and has all the time he need's, but now, i agree, Belov should be 2nd...

    Imagine that lineup:
    1. Sasa Djordjevic
    2. Drazen Petrovic
    3. Peja Stojakovic
    4. Dirk Nowitzki
    5. Arvydas Sabonis
    FRANKY 13
    12-26-2003, 05:06 AM

    THIS LINEUP WOULD SURELY HAVE SOME PROBLEMS DEFENSIVELY AGAINST A DREAM TEAM.BUT I'M SURE THAT WE CAN COMPARE ITS OFFENSIVE SKILLS ONLY WITH THE BEST USA TEAMS[92,96].

    A SPECIALLY IF WE CONSIDER THAT THE BENCH WOULD BE=

    1.TONY PARKER
    2.NIKOS GALLIS
    3.TONY KUKOC
    4.DINO RADJA
    5.VLADE DIVAC
    EverGreen
    12-26-2003, 06:00 AM

    Dino Radja once said in an interview :

    "If I was not Dino Radja, I would liked to have been Fanis Christodoulou! He is the greatest basketballing mind I have seen. He can do anything on the court, pass , shoot, dribble, play defence. He is the complete player"
    Juan Carlos Nadal
    12-26-2003, 06:32 AM

    Fanis Christodoulou was unlucky to stay at a small team for almost the whole of his career (Panionios) and for that reason he never got the appreciation he deserved from the people outside Greece. He was the COMPLETE player. He could play equally well all positions, from PG to C (this is no exaggeration).
    mvblair
    12-26-2003, 07:15 AM

    Originally posted by FRANKY 13
    A SPECIALLY IF WE CONSIDER THAT THE BENCH WOULD BE=

    1.TONY PARKER
    2.NIKOS GALLIS
    3.TONY KUKOC
    4.DINO RADJA
    5.VLADE DIVAC
    Now we're talking about a real Dream Team!! That'd be an awesome bench!!

    (For what it's worth, I think Rigaudeau should be a little higher...)

    Matt
    Zalgirinis
    12-26-2003, 08:22 AM

    Great list and I agree its kinda objective, though I havent seen some of the players playing, mostly those older time yugoslavians.

    Also I agree that Drobniak is too high here and that Marciulionis deserves #3 spot among SGs. I dont know there Danilovic should be (of course lower than Marciulionis), cause Kirkanovic and Delibasic are new names to me.

    Paspalj on the list? Was he that great... I would better put Arturas Karnisovas there (ok, Im subjective here as he is lithuanian

    Tony Parker at #2. NO WAY!!!
    Ok, maybe he could be in that spot later on, but not now. As if for looking to perspective then Im puting Macijauskas at #2 in SG list
    Parker was shown his place in Sweden by Jasikevicius, so hes really not #2. Yannakis is better than Parker.

    Of course this all is just IMHO
    FRANKY 13
    12-26-2003, 09:10 AM

    ITS TRUE THAT FANIS CHRISTODOULOU WAS ONE OF THE MOST COMPLETE EUROPEAN PLAYERS OF ALL TIMES.BUT THE FACT THAT HE IS NOT RECOGNIZED OUTSIDE GREECE THE WAY HE SHOULD BE IS NOT ONLY DUE TO THE FACT THAT HE WAS PLAYING FOR A SMALL TEAM TILL THE END OF HIS CARREER.[OK,HE ALSO PLAYED FOR PAO ONE YEAR BUT I DONT THINK WE SHOULD COUNT IT...]THATS THE MEAN REASON OF COURSE BUT BEBIS WAS ALSO SO LAZY,THAT HE NEVER BECAME THE HUGE PLAYER HE COULD BE.I MEAN THE MAN WAS ONE OF EUROPES BEST POWER FORWARDS AND HE WAS HARDLY GOING TO THE TRAININGS WITH PANIONIOS!IT WAS ONLY WITH THE NT THAT HE WAS CONSIDERING TRAINING AS SOMETHING REALLY IMPORTANT.SO,INSTEAD OF PLAYING IN THE NBA[AND BELIEVE ME IF HE WANTED TO HE EASILY COULD....],HE REMEMBERED WHAT QUALITY BASKETBALL WAS ONLY ONCE A YEAR.ANYWAY,I LOVED THIS PLAYER AND HE IS ON MY FAVORITE LIST.IF THE LIST CONTAINED 100 PLAYERS,THAN WE SHOULD PLACE HIM AMONG THE 20 GREATEST PF,IN SPITE OF ALL THE THINGS I'VE SAID ABOVE.

    ZALGIRINIS,ZARKO PASPALJ HAS DEFINITLY HIS PLACE AMONG THE BEST SF OF ALL TIMES.HE REALLY WAS A HUGE PLAYER.AND HE PLAYED ABOUT 5 YEARS[THE LAST 5] WITH TWO FINGERS WHO DIDNT REACT IN THE RIGHT HAND[AFTER AN OPERATION].HE WAS ONE OF THE GREATEST IN THE COURTS NONETHELESS...

    OF COURSE,IT COULD BE POSSIBLE TO ADD KARNI.BUT NOT INSTEAD OF ZARKO.

    AS FOR TONY PARKER,I SURELY PREFER RIGAUDEAU OR JACIKEVICIUS[AS I PREFER THE EUROPEAN STYLE],BUT I MUST ADMIT THAT PARKER IS BECOMING A GREAT PLAYER.STILL,I ALSO AGREE WITH THE FACT THAT HE DOESNT DESERVE A PLACE IN THE PG'S TOP 10 YET.I ONLY PLACED HIM ON THE DREAM TEAMS BENCH CAUSE HE'S QUICK AND WOULD PLAY WELL AGAINST THE ORIGINAL DREAM TEAMERS,IN A HYPOTHETICAL CONFRONTATION.
    FRANKY 13
    12-26-2003, 09:12 AM

    OH!AND I DONT KNOW IF YANNAKIS WAS REALLY BETTER THAN TONY PARKER IS,BUT I PREFER HIM,EVEN IF ITS A BIT SUBJECTIVE NOW
    Juan Carlos Nadal
    12-26-2003, 09:20 AM

    For some reason that I cannot explain, I never appreciated Yannakis. Don't know why.
    FRANKY 13
    12-26-2003, 09:27 AM

    YOU MEAN AS A PLAYER OR AS A PERSON?
    stuart
    12-26-2003, 09:35 AM

    I'm a little late on this, but welcome FRANKY, i've enjoyed your posts and the all caps is a unique way to post. Thanks for posting the list. There a lot of names I have never seen before and love to see the mix of players on there.

    One thing that surely stuck out was Tony Parker. So young, and aready number 2 as a playmaker? Surely Europe has had more legendary PGs, if not more accomplished.

    Stuart
    Gousgounis
    12-26-2003, 09:41 AM

    Oded Katash should be in the list among the PG's...He surely was better than Jaric....He should be among the top 4 IMO.....
    I know he is not a European but the list makers did include Doron Jamschy so....
    FRANKY 13
    12-26-2003, 09:43 AM

    Thanks Stuart.As i said i found the list relatively objective and very interesting.

    Concerning Tony Parker,i think that all things have been said

    Great skills but poor impact yet.
    Juan Carlos Nadal
    12-26-2003, 09:43 AM

    Franky13,

    Surprisingly enough, ....as a player!
    FRANKY 13
    12-26-2003, 10:11 AM

    Gousgouni,my answer concerning Katash is in onother thread I wanted to answer and created a new thread accidently.Anyway...

    Juan Carlos,i think i understand why you didnt appreciate yannakis.Yannakis was a player who was surely talented,but not as much as his recognition.The reason is that he had an incredible work ethik and above all a tremendous winning spirit.He could litteraly die on the court.

    Moreover,he never was a showman.I would compare him to John Stockton or Mark Price.ah!and he played very well till 93[19,3 pts per game in the european championship,3rd scorer],hardly till the world championship in Toronto in 94[11,5 pts per game,stats that were not his usual ones].So maybe you didnt see the real Yannakis....
    Matiz
    12-26-2003, 01:52 PM

    Hey, they forgot Carlton Myers!
    FRANKY 13
    12-26-2003, 08:36 PM

    Terrific player.He used to be my favorite with Danilovic and Alvertis.Yes,i love pure shooters...Anyway i remember that Myers used to do with Timsystem exactly the kind of things that Macijauskas right now.If he was a bit taller and quicker he would have played in the NBA.

    I suppose he could be in the SG's top 10 but if not, he would surely be at the top 20.
    Last edited by stuart; 05-15-2006 at 08:24 PM.

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    Default

    (continued from above post...)

    hagakure
    12-27-2003, 01:31 PM

    PLAY MAYKER [1]
    1.Aleksandar Djordjevic (1.88 ex-YUG (SERBIA)
    2.Tony Parker (1.84) FRANCIA
    3. Sergei Belov (1.86) ex-URSS (Rusia)
    4.Panayotis Yannakis (1.95) GRECIA
    5. Valdis Valters (1.91) ex-URSS (Letonia)
    6. Juan Antonio Corbalan (1.84) ESPANA
    7. Zoran Slavnic (1.86)YUGOSLAVIA (Serbia)
    8. Antoine Rigaudeau (2.00) FRANCIA
    9. Marko Jaric (2.00) YUGOSLAVIA (Serbia)
    10. Pier Luigi Marzoratti (1.82) ITALIA

    Ridiculous list. Djordjevic and Parker ahead of Giannakis? What exactly has Parker done to deserve such a high spot? He has only played in one nternational competition and despite being called favorites they failed miserably. Sure he's young but he has a lot to prove. Giannakis is the player who has participated in more international games than anyone else (I think he's second in the world after an australian player) and he was one of the players with the biggest heart ever. He would eat Parker for breakfast if they were both in their prime now. Not to mention Djordjevic. Giannakis was 10 cm. taller than Djordjevic and his defense was the best I have ever seen by a european player.

    SHOOTING GUARD [2]
    1.Drazen Petrovic (1.99 ex-YUG (CROACIA)
    2.Nikos Gallis (1.86) GRECIA
    3.Predrag Danilovic 2.01 ex-YUG Serbia
    4.Sarunas Marciulionis (1.96) ex-URRS (LITUANIA)
    5.Dragan Kikanovic (1.99) ex-YUG (SERBIA);
    6.Mirza Delibasic (2.00) ex-YUG (BOSNIA)
    7.Velimir Perasovic (1.97) ex-YUG (CROACIA)
    8. Rimas Kurtinaitis (1.96) ex-URSS (Lituania)
    9. Valdemaras Homicius (1.95 ex-URSS (Lituania)
    10. Dorom Yamshi (1.97) ISRAEL

    I'd put Marculonis a little higher. Not sure where though.

    SMALL FORWARD [3]
    1.Predrag Stojakovic (2.06) YUG (SERBIA)
    2.Tony Kukoc (2.07) ex-YUG (CROACIA)
    3.Dejan Bodiroga (2.05) YUG (SERBIA)
    4.Detlef Schrempf (2.08 ALEMANIA
    5.Drazen Dalipagic (1.99) ex-YUG (SERBIA)
    6. Antonello Riva (1.96 ITALIA
    7.Miki Berkowicz (1.99) ISRAEL
    8.Valery Tikhonenko
    9. Zarko Paspalj (2.01 ex-YUG (Montenegro)
    10. Juan Antonio San Epifanio (1.9 ESPANA

    POWER FORWARD [4]
    1.Dirk Nowitzi (2.13) ALEMANIA
    2.Dino Radja (2.10) ex-YUG (CROACIA)
    3.Pau Gasol (2.15) ESPANA
    4.Radivoj Korac (2.06) ex-YUG (SERBIA)
    5.Alexander Volkov (2.01 ex-URSS (UCRANIA)
    6. Zoran Savic (2.05) ex-YUG (SERBIA)
    7. Predrag Drobnjak (2.10) YUGOSLAVIA (Serbia)
    8. Gregor Fucka (2.15) ITALIA/ESLOVENIA
    9. Andro Knego (2.09) ex-YUG (Croacia)
    10. Dejan Tomasevic (2.06 YUGOSLAVIA (Serbia)

    CENTER [5]
    1.Arvydas Sabonis (2.20) ex-URSS (LITUANIA)
    2.Vlade Divac (2.13) ex-YUG (SERBIA)
    3.Kresimir Cosic (2.11) ex-YUG (CROACIA)
    4.Dino Meneguin (2.13) ITALIA
    5.Zydrunas Ilgauskas (2.21) LITUANIA
    6.Fernando Martín (2.06) ESPANA
    7. Zeljko Rebraca (2.11) YUGOSLAVIA (Serbia)
    8. Radoslav Nesterovic (2.14) ESLOVENIA
    9. Vladimir Tkachenko (2.21) ex-URSS
    10. Panayotis Fassoulas (2.13) GRECIA

    Take Nesterovic off that list quickly! As for Dino Meneghin he was 2.04 cm tall not 2.13.
    hagakure
    12-27-2003, 01:35 PM

    Originally posted by Juan Carlos Nadal
    Fanis Christodoulou was unlucky to stay at a small team for almost the whole of his career (Panionios) and for that reason he never got the appreciation he deserved from the people outside Greece. He was the COMPLETE player. He could play equally well all positions, from PG to C (this is no exaggeration).
    Fanis wasn't just unlucky. He was also very lazy.
    But I do agree that he was the complete player. He was the only one in Europe that could guard Vrankovic when Vrankovic was in his prime. But every year he became fatter and fatter and I hated him because he was wasting his talent that way.
    hagakure
    12-27-2003, 01:37 PM

    Yes Paspalj was that great.

    Originally posted by Zalgirinis
    Great list and I agree its kinda objective, though I havent seen some of the players playing, mostly those older time yugoslavians.

    Also I agree that Drobniak is too high here and that Marciulionis deserves #3 spot among SGs. I dont know there Danilovic should be (of course lower than Marciulionis), cause Kirkanovic and Delibasic are new names to me.

    Paspalj on the list? Was he that great... I would better put Arturas Karnisovas there (ok, Im subjective here as he is lithuanian

    Tony Parker at #2. NO WAY!!!
    Ok, maybe he could be in that spot later on, but not now. As if for looking to perspective then Im puting Macijauskas at #2 in SG list
    Parker was shown his place in Sweden by Jasikevicius, so hes really not #2. Yannakis is better than Parker.

    Of course this all is just IMHO
    hagakure
    12-27-2003, 01:40 PM

    Also Paspalj was 2.09 m tall not 2.01

    Do the people who made that list know anything about the players? They've got almost all the players' heights' wrong.

    And Zarko should be a lot higher than some of the small forwards. Amazing scorer. Before he started to have problems with his fingers that made him lose his shooting touch he was the most dangerous scorer in european basketball. He was also one of the smartest players.
    hagakure
    12-27-2003, 01:48 PM

    Originally posted by FRANKY 13
    Gousgouni,my answer concerning Katash is in onother thread I wanted to answer and created a new thread accidently.Anyway...

    Juan Carlos,i think i understand why you didnt appreciate yannakis.Yannakis was a player who was surely talented,but not as much as his recognition.The reason is that he had an incredible work ethik and above all a tremendous winning spirit.He could litteraly die on the court.

    Moreover,he never was a showman.I would compare him to John Stockton or Mark Price.ah!and he played very well till 93[19,3 pts per game in the european championship,3rd scorer],hardly till the world championship in Toronto in 94[11,5 pts per game,stats that were not his usual ones].So maybe you didnt see the real Yannakis....
    Giannakis was a better player than Stockton and Price. Giannakis was the ultimate Point guard. He was a computer with the heart of a lion.

    You might not have seen the real Giannakis JCN. What he did in Argentina in 1990 was incredible.

    I really don't understand why some people think he wasn't a good person.
    hagakure
    12-27-2003, 01:50 PM

    Originally posted by FRANKY 13
    Terrific player.He used to be my favorite with Danilovic and Alvertis.Yes,i love pure shooters...Anyway i remember that Myers used to do with Timsystem exactly the kind of things that Macijauskas right now.If he was a bit taller and quicker he would have played in the NBA.
    I suppose he could be in the SG's top 10 but if not, he would surely be at the top 20.

    I never liked Myers. He only played for his stats.
    Matiz
    12-27-2003, 03:59 PM

    I doubt Giannakis was a better player than Djordjevic. Djordjevic from last few seasons was just a shadow of healthy version years back in his prime.
    Quote Originally Posted by hagakure
    I never liked Myers. He only played for his stats.
    Neither did(do) I. But you have to admit he knew how to score...
    FRANKY 13
    12-27-2003, 05:01 PM

    THE LIST HAD SOME SMILIES HAGA AND I MESSED UP WHEN I POSTED IT HERe BY TRYING TO fill the blanks QUICKLY.SO its my fault about the heights. lol

    YOURE ALL RIGHT ABOUT ZARKO.He really was incredible.

    misunderstanding ABOUT Yannakis. I dont know anyone who thinks he is a bad person.thats why i asked JCN.

    Yannakis could be compared with Djordjevic.He was a lot better in defense and Sasha was a bit better in offense and had some better technical skills.So I guess Djordjevic was a bit better.But sincerely,i would prefer to have Yannakis in my team because of the winning spirit he transmitted to all the teammates.

    As for Myers.ok,he was playing for his stats,i admit.thats why he didnt win a lot of trophies[only the european championship in 99 with the italian Nt].But as Matiz said,he definitely know how to score and had a very majestuous style.[i hope we can say that ]
    FRANKY 13
    12-28-2003, 01:55 PM

    After the discussions and the opinions I've heard,I thaught that it would be wise to present the list as she should have been from the very beginning.

    PLAY MAYKERS [1]
    1.Aleksandar Djordjevic (1.88 ex-YUG (SERBIA)
    2.Sergei Belov (1.86) ex-URSS (Rusia)
    3.Panayotis Yannakis (1.95) GRECIA
    4.Valdis Valters (1.91) ex-URSS (Letonia)
    5.Juan Antonio Corbalan (1.84) ESPANA
    6.Zoran Slavnic (1.86)YUGOSLAVIA (Serbia)
    7.Antoine Rigaudeau (2.00) FRANCIA
    8.Tony Parker 1.88 FRANCIA
    9.Marko Jaric (2.00) YUGOSLAVIA (Serbia)
    10.Pier Luigi Marzoratti 1.82 ITALIA

    SHOOTING GUARDS [2]
    1.Drazen Petrovic (1.99 ex-YUG (CROACIA)
    2.Nikos Gallis (1.86) GRECIA
    3.Sarunas Marciulionis (1.96) ex-URRS (LITUANIA)
    4.Predrag Danilovic 2.01 ex-YUG SERBIA
    5.Dragan Kikanovic (1.99) ex-YUG (SERBIA);
    6.Mirza Delibasic (2.00) ex-YUG (BOSNIA)
    7.Velimir Perasovic (1.97) ex-YUG (CROACIA)
    8.Rimas Kurtinaitis (1.96) ex-URSS (Lituania)
    9.Valdemaras Homicius (1.95 ex-URSS (Lituania)
    10. Dorom Yamshi (1.97) ISRAEL

    SMALL FORWARDS [3]
    1.Predrag Stojakovic (2.06) YUG (SERBIA)
    2.Tony Kukoc (2.07) ex-YUG (CROACIA)
    3.Dejan Bodiroga (2.05) YUG (SERBIA)
    4.Detlef Schrempf (2.08 ALEMANIA
    5.Drazen Dalipagic (1.99) ex-YUG (SERBIA)
    6.Zarko Paspalj 2.08 ex-YUG MONTENEGRO
    7.Antonello Riva (1.96 ITALIA
    8.Miki Berkowicz (1.99) ISRAEL
    9.Valery Tikhonenko 2.04 ex-URRS
    10.Juan Antonio San Epifanio (1.95) ESPANA

    POWER FORWARDS [4]
    1.Dirk Nowitzi (2.13) ALEMANIA
    2.Dino Radja (2.10) ex-YUG (CROACIA)
    3.Pau Gasol (2.15) ESPANA
    4.Radivoj Korac (2.06) ex-YUG (SERBIA)
    5.Alexander Volkov (2.01 ex-URSS (UCRANIA)
    6.Zoran Savic (2.05) ex-YUG (SERBIA)
    7.Gregor Fucka (2.15) ITALIA/ESLOVENIA
    8.Andro Knego (2.09) ex-YUG (Croacia)
    9.Dejan Tomasevic (2.06 YUGOSLAVIA (Serbia)
    10.Theofanis Christodoulou 2.02 GRECIA

    CENTERS [5]
    1.Arvydas Sabonis (2.20) ex-URSS (LITUANIA)
    2.Vlade Divac (2.13) ex-YUG (SERBIA)
    3.Kresimir Cosic (2.11) ex-YUG (CROACIA)
    4.Dino Meneguin (2.04) ITALIA
    5.Zydrunas Ilgauskas (2.21) LITUANIA
    6.Fernando Martin (2.06) ESPANA
    7.Zeljko Rebraca (2.11) YUGOSLAVIA (Serbia)
    8.Rick Smits 2.20 HOLLAND
    9.Vladimir Tkachenko (2.21) ex-URSS
    10.Panayotis Fassoulas (2.13) GRECIA

    And allow me to give an honorable mention to 10 more players[a bit subjectivly here]=
    PG.Jure Zdovc 1.98 SLOVENIA - Ignacio "Nacho" Solozabal 1.83 SP
    SG.Carlton Myers 1.93 ITALY - Fragiskos Alvertis 2.06 GREECE
    SF.Jordi Villacampa 1.96 SPAIN - Arturas Karnishovas 2.04 LIT
    PF.Walter Magnifico 2.08 ITALY - Andres Jimenez 2.05 SPAIN
    C.Stojan Vrankovic 2.17 CROATIA -Eurelijus Zukauskas 2.17 LIT
    Last edited by Levenspiel; 09-09-2006 at 06:53 PM.

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    Administrator stuart's Avatar
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    (continued from above post...)

    Zalgirinis
    12-29-2003, 06:39 AM

    Heh, if you are puting Eurelijus Zukauskas to the honorable mention list, then Sarunas Jasikevicius must be on that list too and I would put him on the normal PG Top10 too. I dont know who was Marzoratti, so hes 10 at least and imho (maybe subjective) Jasikevicius is better than Jaric, so should be at 9 place...
    mayteromanl
    12-29-2003, 06:50 AM

    As you told, I think this is a very objective list. But... I miss Jasikevicius, Macijauskas... and remove Tomasevic, definitely I don't like this player, I think he's over estimated.

    Valdis Valters has a fair position. I liked very much this player. It's a pity that his son hasn't his quality.
    FRANKY 13
    12-29-2003, 07:01 AM

    I told you the "honorable mention" players are a rather subjective choice

    In fact you're right,Marzorati[2nd in the 1980 0lympics and european champion in 1983 with Italy]was not better than Jacikevicius.I just thaught that Jacikevicius carrier is at its highest point and I didnt want to classify him yet.But since Yaric or Parker are on the list,I think that Saras must be too.He's really my favourite PG so I like him more than Jaric.Right now he could objectivly be around the 9th place.But at the end of his carrier,I'm sure he will be higher...
    EverGreen
    12-29-2003, 08:27 AM

    No room for Fernando Martin?

    No room for Randivoj Korac?

    No room for Giorgos Amerikanos? H was the Gallis of his time and led AEK o win a European cup and to 1 final 4.

    I would also add Mimis Stefanidis( Panellinios and Olimpia Milano) and Faedon Mattheou(Panathinaikos and Olimpia Milano) who during the early 50's with Panellinios were most probably the best club in Europe winning something like 5-6 differant tournaments they played in, in Spain , Italy and Jugoslavia!
    FRANKY 13
    12-29-2003, 08:43 AM

    Re Korac and Martin are in the list!

    Amerikanos was a HUGE player and so was Giorgos Kolokithas of PAO,who led scoring in the 1967 and 1969 Euroleague[Champions Cup at that time].

    Same thing for Mimis Stefanidis and Faidon Mattheou,who led Greece to the European championship's 3rd place in 1949.

    But the list includes players who played after the late 70's.And the reason why[I suppose so,since I didnt elaborate the list] is that before that,basketball wasnt highly professional as it is nowadays,which meant that the players hadnt the physical condition who would permit them to play against todays stars.Moreover,there were no tv transmissions at all,which makes any comparaison too risky.
    Zalgirinis
    12-29-2003, 08:49 AM

    My father accidently saw those lists and he doesnt know English at all. He asked like "what are these lists for?" I said, that it is top10 by positions of alltime european players. So the next was "Sergey Belov at 2?... nowhere close, Chomicius was much better than him".

    Well I havent seen Belov playing, but my father followed former USSR championships very closely (well, as much as I am now with current basketball). And he said that Belov in that times is something like for example Stombergas in nowadays, good player but not superstar. As at that time there were just guards, forwards and centers and no PG-SG stuff, so my father called Modestas Paulauskas the best guard of USSR, even slightly better than Marciulionis, but added that it is hard to compare basketball players who played in diferent decades.
    EverGreen
    12-29-2003, 08:52 AM

    a yes..think i'm going blind!

    How about The "standing Kilometre" Giorgos Trontzos at 2.17 cm? Or am i pushing it?

    Yes, I forgot Kolokithas, what a bomber, i saw footage of him a few years ago. Apostolos Kontos of PAO was also a massive Bombmer!!!
    FRANKY 13
    12-29-2003, 09:54 AM

    I agree with your dad,Zalgirinis.

    As I said,we can probably compare a current center with Cosic[end 70s-early 80s] but not an older player.It would be just unfair for the players of the 50s and 60s,who had surely talent but didnt develop it as todays players do.

    Evergreen,Trontzos was a quality center.He even played in a european all star around 1970[so did Amerikanos].But as i told,its difficult to compare him with todays players.
    hagakure
    12-30-2003, 06:11 AM

    Originally posted by FRANKY 13
    I agree with your dad,Zalgirinis.

    As I said,we can probably compare a current center with Cosic[end 70s-early 80s] but not an older player.It would be just unfair for the players of the 50s and 60s,who had surely talent but didnt develop it as todays players do.

    Evergreen,Trontzos was a quality center.He even played in a european all star around 1970[so did Amerikanos].But as i told,its difficult to compare him with todays players.
    I agree as well. It's impossible to make lists of players you have never seen play.
    Homichius or Valters were amazing players but most people might think that Belov was a better player because they hadn't seen him
    Juan Carlos Nadal
    01-17-2004, 05:53 AM

    I found a nice old pic of Shasha. He was definately one of the greatests euro players, even though his character was questionable to most.
    EverGreen
    01-17-2004, 10:21 AM

    Concerning Danilovic, I told Gousgounis and tell you here. I had a chat with a Greek friend of Marko Jaric and he asked him if Danilovic hated Greece and Greeks due to the fact he groped his testicles after Jugoslavia beat Lithuania in the Eurochamps in 1995.

    He said that Danilovic doesnt hate Greece or Greeks but just reacted badly because of the verbal abuse the Jugoslavian players were receiving from the Greek crowd and for their support of Lithuania.

    He said he just reacted spontaneosly and that no Serb hates Greece because all they did for them during their wars when the whole world was against them.

    ------------

    "We, the Serbs, are blessed to have God in heaven and Hellenes on earth. You the Helleens have us Serbs as your friends. We will continue the struggle you undertook in 1974 against the Muslims until Constantinople becomes a centre for Orthodoxy." -Bishop Nicolas of Sarajevo, Cyprus in July 1994 (20th anniversary of the Turkish invasion)

    "The Serbs have only two friends, God and
    the Greeks." - Radovan Karadzic
    akis71
    03-15-2004, 03:00 PM

    All that kind of lists are a too objective and doesnt include lot of parameters. How can Parker be #2 as play maker and Jasikevicius not even to be in list?
    I also think Galis better than Petrovic considering that all defending system was targeting him since the rest Greek players werent much helping in scoring when Petrovic and Kucoc,Radja,Divac, and other stars in his side.
    How can be in list of centers players like Nesterovic and Tkacenco and not to be in that list the best european blocker ever (Vrancovic) ?
    stuart
    03-15-2004, 04:07 PM

    Originally posted by EverGreen
    How about The "standing Kilometre" Giorgos Trontzos at 2.17 cm? Or am i pushing it?
    "Standing Kilometre?"

    LOL

    What a great nickname.

    Stuart
    Matiz
    03-16-2004, 12:23 AM

    Originally posted by akis71
    All that kind of lists are a too objective and doesnt include lot of parameters. How can Parker be #2 as play maker and Jasikevicius not even to be in list?
    The list is obviously pushing forward nba-players. Agreed.

    Originally posted by akis71
    I also think Galis better than Petrovic considering that all defending system was targeting him since the rest Greek players werent much helping in scoring when Petrovic and Kucoc,Radja,Divac, and other stars in his side.
    Sorry but, no.

    Originally posted by akis71
    How can be in list of centers players like Nesterovic and Tkacenco and not to be in that list the best european blocker ever (Vrancovic) ?
    Vrankovic is actually known almost exclusively in Greece and Croatia, and he had only few good seasons... nothing special imo.
    BallStorm
    03-16-2004, 01:43 AM

    If galis is #2 in the G-list , Why parker can't be #2 in the PG-list?

    I mean , Parker should not right now be so high in the list . Rigaudeau should be higher. He is a great player.

    1996 : french champion(Pau-Orthez).
    1998 : Euroleague winner (Kinder Bologna, Final 4 de Barcelone).
    italian champion(en 5 matches).
    italian cup finalist
    1999 : Euroleague finalist (Kinder Bologne, Final 4 de Berlin).
    Italian cup winner.
    2000 : Finalist Cup Saporta (Kinder Bologna)
    italaian cup winner
    silver medal olympics (Sydney - afainst USA :75-85).
    2001 : italian cup winner.
    Euroleague champion (Kinder Bologna).
    2002 : Italian cup winner.
    Euroleague's finalist (Virtus Bologna).

    These are FACTS. not speculation.

    Originally posted by hagakure
    Ridiculous list. Djordjevic and Parker ahead of Giannakis? What exactly has Parker done to deserve such a high spot? He has only played in one nternational competition and despite being called favorites they failed miserably. Sure he's young but he has a lot to prove. Giannakis is the player who has participated in more international games than anyone else (I think he's second in the world after an australian player) and he was one of the players with the biggest heart ever. He would eat Parker for breakfast if they were both in their prime now. Not to mention Djordjevic. Giannakis was 10 cm. taller than Djordjevic and his defense was the best I have ever seen by a european player.
    ahahahah , really funny. he would have to catch him before . And knowing tony's quickness , it wouldn't happen until he grabs a riffle. I really appreciate your fidelity to the ancient greeks gods , but try to be objective. yannakis is a great man. A true winner. He was certainly the spirit of his team. he deserves a high spot because he incarnates the greek's fighting spirit , which we french utterly praise. But as a player , he was not as good as djordjevic. And remember : tony is the only NBA champion in the list.
    Gousgounis
    03-16-2004, 03:00 AM

    Originally posted by BallStorm
    If galis is #2 in the G-list , Why parker can't be #2 in the PG-list?
    Because he hasn't done enough
    1. He lost the battle against Jasikevicius at Eurobasket. He didn't deliver when his team needed him most.
    2. Galis is a legend....He holds the record for scored point at Euroleague F4's.....The record for scored points at Eurobasket turnaments with an average of 30.5 ppg...........Plus he lead the Greak team to succes.........Tony Parker is not there.....
    After a game against Yugoslavia even Drazens brother said
    yeah I know Drazen is my brother but I vote for Galis as the best player in Europe.
    Matiz
    03-16-2004, 03:12 AM

    Originally posted by Gousgounis
    After a game against Yugoslavia even Drazens brother said yeah I know Drazen is my brother but I vote for Galis as the best player in Europe.
    OK he might have said that... but do you really believe Gallis was better than Drazen overall??
    BallStorm
    03-16-2004, 04:57 AM

    Originally posted by Gousgounis
    1. He lost the battle against Jasikevicius at Eurobasket. He didn't deliver when his team needed him most.
    he lost a battle. he did not lost the war. . There will be so much more battles .

    I know galis . he was an unbelievable scorer. I saw some of his games . He was very very difficult to stop. All his team was playing for him. and the referies often too. But these games ( was it against Antibes?) remains good souvenirs. Now , he was a 183cm G , quite strong and physical , with a good jay , but , according to me , he is not the #2 all-time european G . he was the perfect player in a very special system. Danilovic was far more complete a player . Galis is a legend. He was borned in New jersey and graduated from seton hall. Just this fact makes him a special player in the "all european" thread.
    Last edited by Levenspiel; 09-09-2006 at 07:15 PM.

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    "If galis is #2 in the G-list , Why parker can't be #2 in the PG-list?"
    Galis was the first scorer of the World Champs in 1986, of the european champs in 1981, 1983, 1987,1989, of the Final 4 in 88,89,90, first scorer of the Greek league from around 81 to 94 and many years in the clubs euro league.
    To put it another way he was the first scorer in almost every competition that he played after 1982. He was second scorer of the NCAA in 1978 behind Larry Bird, Greek Champion in 82 and from 84 to 92, European Champion in 1987, European silver medal medalist in 1989.

    It is important to mentioned that the team that Greece beat, led by Galis with 30p. in the semifinal 1987 was Yugoslavia which had amongst others :Petrovic, Divac, Djordjevic, Kukoc, Paspalj, Vrankovic, Dino Radja!!

    His impact was probably bigger than that of some better players than him, he made a country crazy about Basketball, absolutely no Greek would be in this board.

    By the way some other people have also commented about him:

    "What Galis did today I have not even the Celtics see doing." Mc Adu

    "I admire him because he is a great player. In a one to one there is noone like him in Europe. I could not believe that one player alone could bit the Soviet Union." Sergei Belov

    "To my opinion Galis is capable to score with every way. Whatever his adversary tries will fail. Galis is always decided to score and strangely only a few times he misses." Arvidas Sabonis

    "I would like to play in the same team with Galis. I would just pass him the ball and he would score" Drajen Petrovic

    " I told my players we will just mark 4 players. For Galis we will just pray." Voicek Craievski

    "I never expected to find such a good offensive player in Europe" Michael Jordan
    Last edited by stuart; 05-11-2006 at 05:09 PM.

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    Senior Member Lietuvis's Avatar
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    Is there any doubt?

    Arvydas Sabonis

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    Senior Member qiangdade's Avatar
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    replying to a thread created 3 years ago i will state my top 10 though there is no way i can evaluate players from the 60s, and i hope i won't leave any important player out. If so i will correct it. It is always interesting to review such threads every couple of years since things change rapidly

    Regardless the position:

    Dirk Nowitzki
    Nikos Gallis
    Drazen Petrovic
    Vlade Divac
    Sarunas Jasikevicius
    Predrag Stojakovic
    Arvydas Sabonis
    Dejan Bodiroga
    Tony Kukoc
    Andrej Kirilenko


    There r so many players i have to leave out and i might be forgeting someone so please come easy on me. It way more easy to choose 10 players per position than 10 regardless the position.

    i wanna add that i am not stating position in the top10. That is just impossible
    Last edited by qiangdade; 05-15-2006 at 12:47 AM.

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    Administrator Levenspiel's Avatar
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    sorry guys, it's Dirk No-witz-ki!

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    European Player of the Year ("Euroscar") Awards by La Gazzetta dello Sport

    1979 Tkachenko (2-Kicanovic 3-Delibasic)
    1980 Dalipagic (2-D.Meneghin 3-Kicanovic)
    1981 Kicanovic (2-Myshkin 3-Valters)
    1982 Kicanovic (2-Myshkin 3-Marzorati)
    1983 D.Meneghin (2-Corbalan 3-Sabonis)
    1984 Sabonis (2-San Epifanio 3-Corbalan)
    1985 Sabonis (2-D.Petrovic 3-San Epifanio)
    1986 D.Petrovic (2-Sabonis 3-F.Martin)
    1987 Galis (2-D.Petrovic 3-Marciulionis)
    1988 Sabonis (2-Marciulionis 3-D.Petrovic)
    1989 D.Petrovic (2-Radja 3-Kukoc)
    1990 Kukoc (2-Radja 3-Divac)
    1991 Kukoc (2-Divac 3-Marciulionis)
    1992 D.Petrovic (2-Kukoc 3-Sabonis)
    1993 D.Petrovic (2-Kukoc 3-Schrempf)
    1994 Kukoc (2-Radja 3-Danilovic)
    1995 Sabonis (2-Djordjevic 3-Danilovic)
    1996 Kukoc (2-Sabonis 3-Danilovic)
    1997 Sabonis (2-Kukoc 3-Danilovic)
    1998 Kukoc (2-Sabonis 3-Danilovic)
    1999 Sabonis (2-Bodiroga 3-A.Meneghin)
    2000 Fucka (2-Sabonis 3-Bodiroga)
    2001 Stojakovic (2-Nowitzki 3-Gasol)
    2002 Nowitzki (2-Bodiroga 3-Stojakovic)
    2003 Nowitzki (2-Stojakovic 3-Bodiroga)
    2004 Nowitzki (2-Jasikevicius 3-Gasol)
    2005 Nowitzki (2-Jasikevicius 3-Parker)


    29 players:

    Arvydas Sabonis: 6 times 1st, 4 times 2nd, twice 3rd
    Toni Kukoc: 5 times 1st, 3 times 2nd, once 3rd
    Drazen Petrovic: 4 times 1st, twice 2nd, once 3rd
    Dirk Nowitzki: 4 times 1st, once 2nd
    Dragan Kicanovic: twice 1st, once 2nd, once 3rd
    Predrag Stojakovic: once 1st, once 2nd, once 3rd
    Dino Meneghin: once 1st, once 2nd
    Vladimir Tkachenko: once 1st
    Drazen Dalipagic: once 1st
    Nikos Galis: once 1st
    Gregor Fucka: once 1st

    Dino Radja: 3 times 2nd
    Dejan Bodiroga: twice 2nd, twice 3rd
    Anatoly Myshkin: twice 2nd
    Sarunas Jasikevicius: twice 2nd
    Sarunas Marciulionis: once 2nd, twice 3rd
    Juan Antonio Corbalan: once 2nd, once 3rd
    Juan Antonio San Epifanio: once 2nd, once 3rd
    Vlade Divac: once 2nd, once 3rd
    Aleksandar Djordjevic: once 2nd

    Predrag Danilovic: 5 times 3rd
    Pau Gasol: twice 3rd
    Mirza Delibasic: once 3rd
    Valdis Valters: once 3rd
    Pierluigi Marzorati: once 3rd
    Fernando Martin: once 3rd
    Detlef Schrempf: once 3rd
    Tony Parker: once 3rd
    Andrea Meneghin: once 3rd


    (The Euroscar, known as European basketball's "Oscar", has a committee composed of coaches, players and sportswriters from 14 different countries, who submit their vote for the best "European Basketball Player" from the previous calendar year)

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    Senior Member qiangdade's Avatar
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    If i had to choose one player, that would be dirk nowitzki. He proved that bball does not have to be a team sport since he reached the final alone last september in the eurobasket. There is no way u can stop this guy

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    1.Sabas seems objectively the best to me.

    2.Dirk is a good contender to the top if he leads the Mavericks to the NBA title by himself.

    3.Petrovic wasnt better than Galis neither mentaly or as far as basketball is concerned but had more titles and the NBA career.

    4.Galis was the biggest scorer ever but also a great passer and leader.

    5.Kukoc was the biggest all around European player but scoring is still (considered ) more important than passing.

    Every other player on the list was more or less HUGE but a little bit worse than these 5.Of course,were always talking about a personal opinion.

  11. #11

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    Best ever:

    S. Belov

    Petrovic
    Kukoc

    Dirk
    Sabonis

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    Administrator stuart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Índer
    (The Euroscar, known as European basketball's "Oscar", has a committee composed of coaches, players and sportswriters from 14 different countries, who submit their vote for the best "European Basketball Player" from the previous calendar year)
    What is the criteria? One has to be born in Europe or be a naturalized citizen? Does this include NBA play? I would assume it does include NBA since Nowitzki has won it 4 times in a row...

    Stuart

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    Quote Originally Posted by stuart
    What is the criteria? One has to be born in Europe or be a naturalized citizen? Does this include NBA play? I would assume it does include NBA since Nowitzki has won it 4 times in a row...

    Stuart
    The players can be naturalized citizens and be playing in the NBA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FRANKY 13
    The players can be naturalized citizens and be playing in the NBA.
    Thanks.

    Stuart

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    Now that's a great list you guys.

    In my opinion If we should make the best european team I would choose the next twelve:

    point guards: sasa djordjevic, panayiotis yiannakis
    shooting guards: nikos gallis, drazen petrovic
    small forwards:toni kukoc,predrag stojakovic
    power forwards: dirk nowitzki, zoran savic
    centers: arvidas sabonis, dino meneghin

    and also sarunas marciullionis and vlade divac.

    Maybe this team could compete the real dream team(usa's '92 olympic team).....
    ARIS, THE GOD OF WAR
    AND THE EMPEROR OF GREEK BASKETBALL

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    Senior Member Victorious's Avatar
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    Nowitzki

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    Undoubtedly Sabonis in my opinion. A 2,20m guy who can make the three, pass and run the floor as a guard, be an offensive and rebounding power... well... outstanding!

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    If Predrag Drobnjak can find a place in this list , Mehmet Okur, Hidayet Turkoglu, Ibrahim Kutluay, Harun Erdenay, Erman Kunter must find a place too.

    They are far better than him.

    Predrag hasnt know anything about basketball when he started to Efes. He learnt "defence" and basketball in Efes's roster. He could go NBA, because of Efes. or selected to NT....

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    Quote Originally Posted by gravity
    If Predrag Drobnjak can find a place in this list , Mehmet Okur, Hidayet Turkoglu, Ibrahim Kutluay, Harun Erdenay, Erman Kunter must find a place too.

    They are far better than him.

    Predrag hasnt know anything about basketball when he started to Efes. He learnt "defence" and basketball in Efes's roster. He could go NBA, because of Efes. or selected to NT....
    one, and only DRAZEN PETROVIC

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    WWW.ZONE131.COM made it in 2003? Than maybe some lacking players are justifiable.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    The flick from the future...

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