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  • Originally posted by lovejones View Post
    no wei gokongwei!

    really? nice inside scoop!
    People forgot it was Noli Eala who brought Toroman to the Philippines instead of Vlade Djurovic of Serbia, Bernardo Murphy of Argentina, Alan Richardson of England and Jonas Kazlauskas of Lithuania who were the names suggested by Coach Chot Reyes back then in 2008.

    Right now as San Miguel Corporations Director for Sports and Special Assistant to the Office of the President, Noli has the full confidence of Mr Ramon S. Ang and is now in direct control of the affairs of the different basketball teams of the SMC Group.

    From what I know, Toroman is in communication with Sir Noli. Let's see what happens when Coach Rajko is in town in the last week of January.
    LABAN KUNG LABAN! KAYA NATIN PILIPINAS!
    Mabuhay ang TEAM PILIPINAS !!!!


    NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE!
    THE DREAM LIVES ON !!!!

    Comment


    • Originally posted by durden_tyler View Post
      Again, you talk too much without knowing the full details In the past, it's pretty tolerable because people feel that you are just showing your support (which isn't half bad) but this is just stupid pretending you know the ins and outs of it when you don't i don't even want to argue with you anymore, just pity you.

      (For people who still don't get it, please refer to all Nardy's posts regarding this matter )
      I was just saying my own piece on the matter on why Toro lost his job? I'm not convincing anyone to follow my theory. Saying something like that doesn't mean like I'm acting like an insider.

      Comment


      • TOROMAN to BGK!

        hmmm....interesting!...

        Comment


        • Talk about continuity

          Originally posted by nardy View Post
          Since you are talking about history, I do not think its about being impatient when you change Head Coaches for the National Team, actually its the way we do things even before the PBA was born, it did not matter if we are winners or not, its just we give other coaches a chance to become a National Coach.

          Asian Games

          1951 1st place Coach Dionisio Calvo
          1954 1st place Coach Herminio Silva
          1958 1st place Coach Valentin Eduque
          1962 1st place Coach Enrique Crame
          1966 6th place Coach Felicisimo Fajardo
          1970 5th place Coach Virgilio Dalupan
          1974 4th place Coach Valentin Eduque

          Asian Basketball Confederation

          1960 1st place Coach Arturo Rius
          1963 1st place Coach Felicisimo Fajardo
          1965 2nd place Coach Felicisimo Fajardo
          1967 1st place Coach Carlos Loyzaga
          1969 3rd place Coach Lauro Mumar
          1971 2nd place Coach Ignacio Ramos
          1973 1st place Coach Valentin Eduque


          Even China changes Head Coaches so often

          1988 Olympic Games: finished 11th Coach: Qian Chenghai
          1990 FIBA World Championship: finished 14th Coach: Wang Zhangyou
          1992 Olympic Games: finished 12th Coach: Jiang Xingquan
          1994 FIBA World Championship: finished 8th Coach: Jiang Xingquan
          1996 Olympic Games: finished 8th Coach: Gong Luming
          2000 Olympic Games: finished 10th Coach: Jiang Xingquan
          2002 FIBA World Championship: finished 12th Coach: Wang Fei
          2004 Olympic Games: finished 8th Coach: Del Harris
          2006 FIBA World Championship: finished 15th Coach: Jonas Kazlauskas
          2008 Olympic Games: finished 8th Coach: Jonas Kazlauskas
          2010 FIBA World Championship: finished 16th Coach: Bob DONEWALD

          Even Coach Rajko does not stay long in one place:



          But you have a point if a Coach stays longer then there is continuity. In the case of Tim Cone, he was only in charge for a year or less than 2 years unlike Toroman who was our coach for 3 years. In recent years, the one that come close of having the longest tenure would have been Chot Reyes however at his time it was cutted due to the FIBA suspension and actually he was forced to cram all his plans for 4 years into a 1 year training in 2007.
          What I want to imply is that, we hardly gave any coach a chance to handle the National team for at least 2 consecutive editions of FIBA-Asia Men's Championship. In the 2009, I wanted Chot Reyes to handle the Powerade-RP for the 2009 FIBA-asia although Chot could only steer the RP-San Miguel to 9th place in the 2007 FIBA-Asia. I believed that Chot has learned a lot of lessons from that 2007 set back & that he was bound to coach the national team much better than he did in 2007. As any expert would tell us, experience, whether good or bad, is the best teacher. Chot for sure had broken down the complexities of the international game. But unfortunately, the PBA decided to replace Chot with Yeng Guiao simply becoz Guiao is the "hottest" PBA coach at that time. While Guiao has proven himself as a great coach in the PBA, the international game is a totally different ballgame. Whatever coaching expertise Guiao had exhibited in his colorful PBA career, he wasn't able to carry it over in the international leve becoz he lacked enough experience coaching in international tournaments. Prior to his appointment as the National team coach in 2009, Guiao hasn't coached in a major international tournament for a long time. Maybe the last time Guiao had coached in an international tournament, countries like Iran, Jordan, Lebanon & Qatar were just mediocre teams in Asia. Much had changed in Asian basketball since the last time Guiao coached a team in an international tournament prior to his appointment as RP-Powerade team head coach in 2009.

          Chot had already learned what Guiao "has yet to learn". Everything that Chot had learned from the 2007 FIBA-asia experience went down the drain becoz the 2009 RP-Powerade team had a new coach- a coach who has been absent from the international level for quite a while. So when Guiao was appointed national team head coach it was absolutely "back from scratch" once again. And that has been the story of Philippine basketball, always going "back from scratch" in every tournament while other countries are putting much emphasis on "continuity".

          You're right Nards, there's nothing wrong w/ changing the coach. Everybody is doing that. Even China, Iran, Jordan change coach so often. Pero wag naman ganon kadalas. There's nothing wrong w/ changing our clothes everyday, in fact it's a must. But to change one's clothes every hour, I think it's extremely silly.
          "A king may move a man, a father may claim a son, but that man can also move himself, and only then does that man truly begin his own game. Remember that howsoever you are played or by whom, your soul is in your keeping alone, even though those who presume to play you be kings or men of power, when you stand before God, you cannot say, 'But I was told by others to do thus,' or that virtue was not convenient at the time. This will not suffice." - King Baldwin IV

          Comment


          • Originally posted by nardy View Post
            Anyway there is still a chance Coach Rajko might end-up coaching Barangay Ginebra, and that would be something we could look forward to.
            interesting...

            If it does come to fruition I wonder how these two contrasting philosophies, gung-ho(ginebra) and disciplinarian(Toroman) will be able to exist.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by kgi View Post
              TOROMAN to BGK!

              hmmm....interesting!...
              Let's see what Chito Narvasa and his BCAP cronies say about this.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by insulares View Post
                Let's see what Chito Narvasa and his BCAP cronies say about this.
                actually am wondering why the said group is a bit to quiet as of late, we did not hear from them when Bobby Parks was appointed the Head Coach of San Miguel Beermen in the ABL or when Norman Black became the head coach of the SINAG PILIPINAS National Team. Nobody questioned the appointment of Billy Ray Bates as Assistant Coach/Consultant of the Philippine Patriots.
                LABAN KUNG LABAN! KAYA NATIN PILIPINAS!
                Mabuhay ang TEAM PILIPINAS !!!!


                NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE!
                THE DREAM LIVES ON !!!!

                Comment


                • Originally posted by nardy View Post
                  Anyway there is still a chance Coach Rajko might end-up coaching Barangay Ginebra, and that would be something we could look forward to.
                  wondering if Mark Caguioa will listen to coach toroman.
                  Philippine Malditas to FIFA Womens World Cup 2023

                  sigpic

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by nardy View Post
                    actually am wondering why the said group is a bit to quiet as of late, we did not hear from them when Bobby Parks was appointed the Head Coach of San Miguel Beermen in the ABL or when Norman Black became the head coach of the SINAG PILIPINAS National Team. Nobody questioned the appointment of Billy Ray Bates as Assistant Coach/Consultant of the Philippine Patriots.
                    My best guess is that the BCAP is in its dormant stage - the organization probably hasn't been meeting regularly and may be rudderless at this point. Chito Narvasa, if I'm not mistaken, is also a practicing legal counsel while Yeng Guiao is busy with his ROS coaching chores. The only guy who can probably stir a hornet's nest would be Alfrancis Chua, although I doubt if he can mobilize the forces without Guiao and Narvasa's help.

                    Similarly, I feel that the SBP, through MVP, has found a way to "negotiate" with the BCAP regarding decisions pertaining to the elite basketball program. Otherwise, the BCAP would have been up in arms when Rajko Toroman was appointed head coach of the PHL national team, when his original appointment was merely to be as consultant. We didn't hear anything from Narvasa, et al, we haven't heard anything from them 'til now. Perhaps, the BCAP was included as part of the stakeholders of the SBP, whereby the BCAP will benefit as well from the transfer of technology of the foreign coaches hired to help the national cause.

                    The developments at the SMC front have become very interesting indeed. Who would have thought Jong Uichico, arguably the most loyal and longest-staying member of the Cojuangco Group, would pack up and leave for Cojuangco's main corporate rival? Among the present personalities in the SMC stable, only he and SMB team manager Hector Calma were part of the pioneer group. Allan Caidic and Samboy Lim came in only circa '84-'85 while the other pioneers like Derrick Pumaren, Elmer Reyes, Leo Austria have moved on to other fields. Which is why it isn't surprising to hear about the alleged rumor of Rajko Toroman possibly moving to Barangay Ginebra and replacing Siot Tanquincen. Tanquincen, another loyal ally of the Cojuangcos, became so because he's an understudy of Ron Jacobs. With Jacobs sidelined and Danding not running the SMC ship anymore, Ramon Ang obviously wields more political power in the SMC front more than Danding's younger brother, Henry - which is probably the arrangement that Danding wanted.

                    Further to this, one begins to think how much of an influence Noli Eala has now in the SMC sports front. Eala is essentially an outsider who blitz-krieged his way into the executive corridors of the conglomerate. He also seems to have the full trust and confidence of Ang. I initially thought Eala would be reporting directly to Robert Non but apparently, I was wrong. Ang may have hired Eala directly and Eala may be his direct report, a setup that Eala would obviously favor and probably sought for during the negotiation stages. I won't even be surprised if Uichico's resignation in the SMC camp may have been partly triggered by Eala's entry. Note that Uichico's demotion from head coach to co-coach of Barangay Ginebra happened when Eala already took over his role as sports head.

                    Here's the thing. A few weeks ago, we were all speculating as to how the MVP Group would be able to manage their coaching resources - as to who will handle SMART-Gilas, the two MVP teams in the PBA, and the Ateneo and San Beda collegiate teams. Everything seemed ideal with Chot Reyes and Ryan Gregorio in the PBA, and Black and Lim in the collegiate leagues. They were apparently missing one more guy to handle the SMART-Gilas team with Toroman being left out. The entry of Uichico solves that problem. And if reports are true that apart from being hired as an assistant coach of SMART-Gilas, Uichico will also be a consultant for Meralco, then there's more to the SMART-Gilas offer than meets the eye. Uichico is a fine coach, an exceptional scout, and a bonafide team player who doesn't complain. His strongest strength, having inherited this from Jacobs, is preparation, something no other local coach is better at, even with Tim Cone around. He may not be as good a coach as Yeng Guiao or Chot Reyes when it comes to making adjustments midway into the game but Uichico is a master at preparation. This is a key ingredient for coaches in the international scene.

                    I have a gut feel that Uichico, being a coach genuinely liked by players, would eventually be tapped as head coach of SMART-Gilas on a fulltime basis. Uichico would also serve as another conduit for MVP to seek out the players of the rival SMC group. Uichico leaving San Miguel didn't leave any bitter trails, exemplifying the gentleman ways of the genteel coach. So if Uichico would want to tap the services of the likes of Arwind Santos, Alex Cabagnot, Chris Lutz, Jay Washington, James Yap, Marc Pingris, Joe Devance, Mark Caguioa, among others in the future, then his former relationship with the SMC Group would serve him well.

                    Comment


                    • my gut feel Chot- going to coach Gilas, Norman Black-will stay in Ateneo and Uichico-might be Chot's replacement as TnT headcoach.I might be wrong though.
                      "How small ball works: Tall Skilled beats small skilled every time,but small skilled beats tall stiff every time" - Kevin McHale

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Alex07 View Post
                        my gut feel Chot- going to coach Gilas, Norman Black-will stay in Ateneo and Uichico-might be Chot's replacement as TnT headcoach.I might be wrong though.
                        Quinito Henson @TheDeanQuinito
                        aside from assnt coach job with gilas, jong uichico has agreed to be consultant for meralco PBA team in 3-year contract, sed its career move
                        11:30 AM - 14 Jan 12 via web

                        We'll soon see if the way Talk N Text finish this conference would affect MVP's decision regarding the new Head Coach of Gilas 2.0. For me I feel it does not matter if TNT becomes the Champion or not but on how Chot handles the situation.
                        Last edited by nardy; 01-14-2012, 04:28 PM.
                        LABAN KUNG LABAN! KAYA NATIN PILIPINAS!
                        Mabuhay ang TEAM PILIPINAS !!!!


                        NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE!
                        THE DREAM LIVES ON !!!!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by nardy View Post
                          Quinito Henson @TheDeanQuinito
                          aside from assnt coach job with gilas, jong uichico has agreed to be consultant for meralco PBA team in 3-year contract, sed its career move
                          11:30 AM - 14 Jan 12 via web

                          We'll soon see if the way Talk N Text finish this conference would affect MVP's decision regarding the new Head Coach of Gilas 2.0. For me I feel it does not matter if TNT becomes the Champion or not but on how Chot handles the situation.
                          Nardy, what did you mean by "Chot handling the situation?" Were you referring to Chot's handling TNT at present in their battle against Petron and to the conclusion of the 1st Conference, or if he's truly capable of handling the national team, not in terms of technical know-how (which we all know he may be the most qualified local coach today) but in terms of how he handles his players?

                          I don't know, Chot has somehow rubbed me off the wrong way for the past couple of seasons already. Back in 2005, I really thought Reyes was the right guy for the job as head coach of the national team. For one, he was the one who got to study the international game more than anyone else, an educational trip to Argentina being the coup de grace. Secondly, he had all the time in the world to learn about the international game since he wasn't actively involved in any direct capacity with any PBA team. Third, he was taken in by the SMC Group as head coach of San Miguel Beer, ousting Jong Uichico at his post, simply because he was the fair-haired boy back then and that SMC was the lead sponsor for the national team. To take out Uichico from San Miguel Beer was almost unimaginable, but Reyes was able to negotiate this, forcing a realignment that led to Uichico handling Barangay Ginebra and demoting Siot Tanquincen who gave the Gin Kings two titles in 2004-05.

                          But then, after winning the first two conferences of last season, Reyes seemed to go spiral from there. He lost his cool against his players, to the point of blaming them (including his import) for their debacle, and losing out in a PR war against Ato Agustin. I felt Reyes lost more with his integrity as a coach from all these compared to losing the conference and the Slam.

                          And now, after a great start, TNT is struggling to keep its head above water, down 2-3 against Petron in their semifinals series. And this series also has its share of Reyes' controversies. He blames Ryan Reyes for not following instructions, he slammed the playboard twice in front of his players in a fit of rage, he suddenly reveals that Kelly Williams should not have been playing since Game 1 because of a hamstring injury, etc. Utter lack of accountability, in my opinion.

                          Assuming MVP is following the situation closely, you and me would think if Reyes is indeed the ideal coach to handle a national team made up of possibly 12 professional superstar players, or a mixture of pros and topnotch amateurs. Either way, one begins to wonder if Reyes' emotions can be kept in check while at the same time making sure that his players won't lose confidence playing for a man who regularly blames everyone except himself for their losses. Uichico, on the other hand, is the antithesis of Reyes. He's mild-mannered, cool, and keeps everything in check. He rationalizes things, accepts loses but prepares for the succeeding games, and keeps a positive attitude all throughout. Plus the fact that difficult superstars like Danny Seigle, Rudy Hatfield, Eric Menk, Mark Caguioa, JJ Helterbrand, Danny Ildefonso, Dondon Hontiveros, etc. have the highest respect for the guy. Hatfield was particularly difficult to deal with during the 2007-08 season after coming back from a long hiatus in Michigan. But Uichico was able to deal with his eccentricities and made him the kind of player that we all know. Ditto with DS back in his superstar years of 1999 to 2002 and Eric Menk in 2007 onwards. Mark Caguioa recently came out with his frustrations, stating that Ginebra today wasn't the same as the one in the past, obviously showing his frustration with Siot Tanquincen's system. Caguioa seemed to be happier with Uichico's coaching, even if the latter's style was more deliberate compared to Tanquincen - when Caguioa's game is founded on run-and-gun and playing with reckless abandon.

                          The upside for MVP here is that he's now blessed with three legitimate coaches in his stable to run the national team. These are Reyes, Uichico and Norman Black. I really can't imagine Black being removed from Ateneo after so much success with the Blue Eagles. Changing the guard now might not do well for Ateneo. Which would mean that I don't see Black being elevated to head coaching in the PBA since I can't imagine Ateneo doing as well without Black around. Black has proven that he's several tiers above his colleagues in the UAAP. It's also noticeable that the parents of topnotch HS players would want their sons to play for Black to further learn from him. There'd be some latitude for Ryan Gregorio, as his family connections are well-established in the MVP Group. Similarly, Meralco is still a relatively new team and Gregorio can argue that he doesn't have the same artillery that sister team TNT has. He will remain with Meralco at least up to the end of the season, regardless of how they'll do. But he'll also be with the national team as an assistant.

                          Which leaves Reyes and Uichico. Reyes is actually doing very well with TNT, having won 2 of the last 3 PBA titles. He's struggling now but it wouldn't be fair to say that he's not doing well. To get him out of TNT, have him replaced by Black, and have someone replace Black at Ateneo would be rocking the MVP ship too much. The hiring of Uichico should resolve this dilemma, as Uichico can simply take the place of Rajko Toroman and have Reyes, Black and Gregorio at his call anytime.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Jay P. Mercado View Post
                            Nardy, what did you mean by "Chot handling the situation?" Were you referring to Chot's handling TNT at present in their battle against Petron and to the conclusion of the 1st Conference, or if he's truly capable of handling the national team, not in terms of technical know-how (which we all know he may be the most qualified local coach today) but in terms of how he handles his players?

                            I don't know, Chot has somehow rubbed me off the wrong way for the past couple of seasons already. Back in 2005, I really thought Reyes was the right guy for the job as head coach of the national team. For one, he was the one who got to study the international game more than anyone else, an educational trip to Argentina being the coup de grace. Secondly, he had all the time in the world to learn about the international game since he wasn't actively involved in any direct capacity with any PBA team. Third, he was taken in by the SMC Group as head coach of San Miguel Beer, ousting Jong Uichico at his post, simply because he was the fair-haired boy back then and that SMC was the lead sponsor for the national team. To take out Uichico from San Miguel Beer was almost unimaginable, but Reyes was able to negotiate this, forcing a realignment that led to Uichico handling Barangay Ginebra and demoting Siot Tanquincen who gave the Gin Kings two titles in 2004-05.

                            But then, after winning the first two conferences of last season, Reyes seemed to go spiral from there. He lost his cool against his players, to the point of blaming them (including his import) for their debacle, and losing out in a PR war against Ato Agustin. I felt Reyes lost more with his integrity as a coach from all these compared to losing the conference and the Slam.

                            And now, after a great start, TNT is struggling to keep its head above water, down 2-3 against Petron in their semifinals series. And this series also has its share of Reyes' controversies. He blames Ryan Reyes for not following instructions, he slammed the playboard twice in front of his players in a fit of rage, he suddenly reveals that Kelly Williams should not have been playing since Game 1 because of a hamstring injury, etc. Utter lack of accountability, in my opinion.

                            Assuming MVP is following the situation closely, you and me would think if Reyes is indeed the ideal coach to handle a national team made up of possibly 12 professional superstar players, or a mixture of pros and topnotch amateurs. Either way, one begins to wonder if Reyes' emotions can be kept in check while at the same time making sure that his players won't lose confidence playing for a man who regularly blames everyone except himself for their losses. Uichico, on the other hand, is the antithesis of Reyes. He's mild-mannered, cool, and keeps everything in check. He rationalizes things, accepts loses but prepares for the succeeding games, and keeps a positive attitude all throughout. Plus the fact that difficult superstars like Danny Seigle, Rudy Hatfield, Eric Menk, Mark Caguioa, JJ Helterbrand, Danny Ildefonso, Dondon Hontiveros, etc. have the highest respect for the guy. Hatfield was particularly difficult to deal with during the 2007-08 season after coming back from a long hiatus in Michigan. But Uichico was able to deal with his eccentricities and made him the kind of player that we all know. Ditto with DS back in his superstar years of 1999 to 2002 and Eric Menk in 2007 onwards. Mark Caguioa recently came out with his frustrations, stating that Ginebra today wasn't the same as the one in the past, obviously showing his frustration with Siot Tanquincen's system. Caguioa seemed to be happier with Uichico's coaching, even if the latter's style was more deliberate compared to Tanquincen - when Caguioa's game is founded on run-and-gun and playing with reckless abandon.

                            The upside for MVP here is that he's now blessed with three legitimate coaches in his stable to run the national team. These are Reyes, Uichico and Norman Black. I really can't imagine Black being removed from Ateneo after so much success with the Blue Eagles. Changing the guard now might not do well for Ateneo. Which would mean that I don't see Black being elevated to head coaching in the PBA since I can't imagine Ateneo doing as well without Black around. Black has proven that he's several tiers above his colleagues in the UAAP. It's also noticeable that the parents of topnotch HS players would want their sons to play for Black to further learn from him. There'd be some latitude for Ryan Gregorio, as his family connections are well-established in the MVP Group. Similarly, Meralco is still a relatively new team and Gregorio can argue that he doesn't have the same artillery that sister team TNT has. He will remain with Meralco at least up to the end of the season, regardless of how they'll do. But he'll also be with the national team as an assistant.

                            Which leaves Reyes and Uichico. Reyes is actually doing very well with TNT, having won 2 of the last 3 PBA titles. He's struggling now but it wouldn't be fair to say that he's not doing well. To get him out of TNT, have him replaced by Black, and have someone replace Black at Ateneo would be rocking the MVP ship too much. The hiring of Uichico should resolve this dilemma, as Uichico can simply take the place of Rajko Toroman and have Reyes, Black and Gregorio at his call anytime.
                            the way Chot is passing the blame on his players instead of taking command of responsibility which I feel MVP would not fail to hear or notice.

                            The way I feel is that we need a coach who the players could respond well, who the players feel is there to support them all the way and in return they are willing to die for. Our teams have been falling short and we really need a big boost from somewhere, for me its still the players who would dictate how far we'll go no matter who is the coach. We could still continue the good things that were used by Coach Rajko even if he's no longer the one in charge.

                            We know the kind of opposition we'll be facing, we also know the different shortcomings of our past national teams .... its time we form a team that could address our past mistakes and be more than competitive with our rivals. Its time we junk the old process of choosing players wherein we consider heavily on one's popularity but really form the Team that could really accomplish the goal.
                            LABAN KUNG LABAN! KAYA NATIN PILIPINAS!
                            Mabuhay ang TEAM PILIPINAS !!!!


                            NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE!
                            THE DREAM LIVES ON !!!!

                            Comment


                            • I think the most prudent desicion is to have Uicico as NT coach in the meantime at least up to Sept 2012. Chot and Black are still heavily commited with TNT and Ateneo, it would'nt be fair for both progammes to have a coach who has other matters to think of. it is neither a good idea to change coaches in "mid season". In addition Uichico has full attention of the NT. This early the NT needs a full time coach. And Uichico is the only one realistically avaialble , What happens after Sept 2012. is MVP's call
                              NBTC- Team New Zealand - Camp David: vision "To provide a basketball Pathway for Filipino Kids in NZ while building men of character and leadership. I can do all things ...
                              https://www.facebook.com/teamNZBasketball/

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by analyzed View Post
                                I think the most prudent desicion is to have Uicico as NT coach in the meantime at least up to Sept 2012. Chot and Black are still heavily commited with TNT and Ateneo, it would'nt be fair for both progammes to have a coach who has other matters to think of. it is neither a good idea to change coaches in "mid season". In addition Uichico has full attention of the NT. This early the NT needs a full time coach. And Uichico is the only one realistically avaialble , What happens after Sept 2012. is MVP's call
                                goodbye Chot might also mean goodbye Javale Mcghee
                                "How small ball works: Tall Skilled beats small skilled every time,but small skilled beats tall stiff every time" - Kevin McHale

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