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Thread: Panama National Team

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    Dear Leader J-Mart's Avatar
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    Default Guillermo Vecchio to coach Team Panama

    Argentinian coach, Guillermo Vecchio was choosen to coach Team Panama for the upcoming WBC in Japan. Nice selection

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    Senior Member Edgar Lopez's Avatar
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    I think he coached mexico a while back

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    yes
    I felt sorry for him
    mexican players really never believed in him, they did not played hard, they did not executed well, they argued with him a lot not good
    he is an excellent coach

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    Senior Member Jokinen's Avatar
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    He was the coach who first put Nocioni, Ginobili, Oberto and all the golden generation in the Argentinian NT, when all of them were very young, good eye!

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    Default Cota to play for Panama NT

    (originally posted by Zalgirinis, 03-28-2005, 05:15 AM)

    Zalgirinis
    03-28-2005, 05:15 AM

    Is it the right board for this topic?

    So in his interview to biggest Russian sports daily Ed Cota said that he got invitation from Panama basketball federation and he agreed to play for them this summer. He has been to Panama only 4 times in his life, but his parents are from there so he has USA and Panama passports.

    Has Panama any other good player and in what competition will they play this summer?
    mvblair
    03-28-2005, 07:33 AM

    Wow!! This is fantastic news for Panama!! Thanks so much for reporting this, Zalg.

    Panama will probably play in one or two regional tournaments this summer, maybe Centrobasket.

    Their best players are in Puerto Rico or the NCAA. I think they have one player with Wake Forest, but he kind of washed out. Also, Gilbert Arenas of the Washington Wizards is a Panamanian citizen, but I don't think he has ever shown interest in Panama...

    Matt
    K-2 Young
    03-28-2005, 08:10 AM

    http://www.interbasket.net/talk/show...&threadid=4101 I said it here, and it looks like no one read it or believe it

    Yes, he announced it some months ago. About quality of Panama NT. They were leaded by Michael Hicks and Kevin Daley, but with Cota, Ruben Garces, and Jair Peralta now joining the team, they look pretty good, and now even more dangerous with Arroyo out of the tournament

    (Kevin Daley was the double of Jordan in a MJ ad were he was playing against his young self (Kevin Daley) )


    I have a video of Panama basketball against the Puerto Rico team without Arroyo, Piculin, Santiago, and Casiano, but I have no VCR right now
    K-2 Young
    03-29-2005, 01:31 AM

    yes, they play centrobasket.
    some of the elite of Panama basketball has played in Puerto Rico, like Mario Butler, Guillermo Myers, Kevin Daley and others. Panama basketball looks like they are organizing their players for the future, so we better watch out.

    Ruben Garces - Estudiantes (Spain)
    Ruben Douglas - Climamiao (Italy)
    Ed Cota - Dynamo St. Petersburg (Russia)
    Chris Warren - Oliveirense Caçarola (Portugal)
    Michael Hicks - Agricola Gloria Montecatini (Lega2)
    Kevin Daley - Harlem Globetrotters (USA)
    Leroy Jackson - Humacao Grises (Puerto Rico)


    mvblair
    03-30-2005, 12:38 PM

    Originally posted by K-2 Young
    http://www.interbasket.net/talk/show...&threadid=4101 I said it here, and it looks like no one read it or believe it
    Did somebody just saying something?

    I always forget that Ruben Douglas plays for Team Panama. He's a fantastic player in his own right.

    If Panama can put the team that Josean suggested together, they will be in really strong shape. I can see them playing as well as Venezuela, another team that is just below the elites of the Americas.

    Matt
    K-2 Young
    04-03-2005, 06:28 AM

    they said they will do it
    letsd wait and see, I have been waiting a Dominican Dream team for 4 years already , I can wait a Panamanian Dream team for at least a decade
    panamared
    04-16-2005, 01:14 PM

    Originally posted by mvblair
    Did somebody just saying something?

    I always forget that Ruben Douglas plays for Team Panama. He's a fantastic player in his own right.

    If Panama can put the team that Josean suggested together, they will be in really strong shape. I can see them playing as well as Venezuela, another team that is just below the elites of the Americas.
    if panama put all they team together i know we will fighting for one of the first positions , and remember that panama used to be uno of the elites teams in the americas and we will get that position again soon, but we still one of the best in the americas.
    and if you guy dont know ruben duglas is the cousin of gilber arenas and i think arenas is much complite player and one of the best in the nba than arrollo.
    K-2 Young
    04-16-2005, 02:23 PM

    Originally posted by panamared
    if panama put all they team together i know we will fighting for one of the first positions , and remember that panama used to be uno of the elites teams in the americas and we will get that position again soon, but we still one of the best in the americas.
    and if you guy dont know ruben duglas is the cousin of gilber arenas and i think arenas is much complite player and one of the best in the nba than arrollo.
    to get a medal Panama would have to beat USA (good luck), Brazil (good luck), Canada with Nash and Magloire, also Denham Brown, Barrett and others (good luck), Dominican Republic with a full team and the crowd and refs supporting them , also Argentina who will still be powerful, and Puerto Rico less Arroyo but still a powerful team capable of beating Panama. Its going to be a hard tournament for us all, no easy team, and no unbeatable team. It would not surprise me to see Panama finish as the worst team of the tourney, neither it would surprise me to see them getting the bronze. The same can be said of Puerto Rico, easily, we can become the worst team of the tournament.
    panamared
    04-16-2005, 02:42 PM

    Originally posted by K-2 Young
    to get a medal Panama would have to beat USA (good luck), Brazil (good luck), Canada with Nash and Magloire, also Denham Brown, Barrett and others (good luck), Dominican Republic with a full team and the crowd and refs supporting them , also Argentina who will still be powerful, and Puerto Rico less Arroyo but still a powerful team capable of beating Panama. Its going to be a hard tournament for us all, no easy team, and no unbeatable team. It would not surprise me to see Panama finish as the worst team of the tourney, neither it would surprise me to see them getting the bronze. The same can be said of Puerto Rico, easily, we can become the worst team of the tournament.
    in the last tournoment panama beated brazil , and canada is not a great team panama already haved beated canada and with nash, and the dominican republic is not a strong team like people said , if we get all are good player in one team , we will be fighting for ones of the medals.
    K-2 Young
    04-16-2005, 03:05 PM

    Originally posted by panamared
    in the last tournoment panama beated brazil , and canada is not a great team panama already haved beated canada and with nash, and the dominican republic is not a strong team like people said , if we get all are good player in one team , we will be fighting for ones of the medals.
    oh, yeah, 2001

    Panama 102 - Brazil 91
    Brazil with a team that looks almost the same like the current one, but far more un-experienced

    Day 6, Aug.21, 2001: Brazil – Panama 94-102 (Helinho 14, Marcelinho 19, Marcio 6, Anderson 3, Nene 6, Vanderlei 14, Sandro 13, Demetrius 2, Tiagao 2, Guilherme 7, Alex 4. Coach: Helio Rubens - Peralta 18, Jackson 31, Hicks 22, García 4, Ortíz 12, Gomez 8, Stoute 0, Cárdenas 7, Jaen 0, Bennett 0. Coach: Reginald Grenald)

    that same year, Panama lost by 3 to Mexico, lost twice to puerto Rico by an average of 25 points (117-80)(89-75), later barely beating Mexico by 3, and losing to Venezuela.

    Panama didnt qualified to the Tournament in 2003.

    and in 2004, Panama barely beated Cuba , also losing to uncompleted teams of Puerto Rico and Dominican Republic.(No Casiano, Arroyo, Ortiz, Santiago)(No Garcia, Western, Flores, Lopez, Vargas, Peterson)(No Cota, Garces, Douglas). Also have to say that Panama beated Mexico without Quinteros, Najera and others

    Day 4 - Aug.19, 2001: Panama - Canada 82-89 (Peralta 10, Jackson 20, Hicks 23, García 10, Ortiz 2, Bennett 4, Gomez 3, Cárdenas 8, Jaen 2. Coach: Reginald Grenald - Nash 11, Hamilton 17, Robinson 4, Guaraschi 8, Meeks 8, Daniels 3, Walker 0, Swords 1, Karangwa 5, MacCulloch 13, Kwiatkowski 19, Jobity 0. Coach: Jay Triano)

    Panama didnt beated canada in recent times (just noticed no Barrett )
    .

    Maybe practices games


    I never said its imposible for Panama to win a medal...
    panamared
    04-16-2005, 04:25 PM

    so do you really think that panama if have all the best player together won be able to win a medal mmmmm ok will see , and in the past centro basket we only have hincks an daley on the team from our best players.
    panamared
    04-16-2005, 04:28 PM

    this is our player PANAMANIANS ABROAD


    Name CM Pos Born Team

    ARG
    Gomez Dionisio 203 F 80 C.Entrerriano (LigaA)
    * Warren Jamahr 194 G/F 79 Regatas SN (TNA Group South)

    COL
    * Johnson Alfonso 191 G/F 71 Arrieros (Copa Federacion)

    CRC
    * Cox Mario 190 F 70 Liceo (NL)
    Jaen Ivan 201 C 66 Liceo (NL)

    CZE
    * Gittens Roberto 200 F/C 79 Usti nad Labem (NBL Group A2)

    ECU
    Bennett Danubio 183 G 79 ADN (Guayas League)
    Fox Oscar 198 F/C ADN (Guayas League)
    Salazar Alex 205 F/C 75 Ciudad de Quevedo (National League)
    Watson Mauricio 196 G/F 78 Ciudad de Quevedo (National League)

    ENG
    * Jempierre Alberto 203 F/C 79 Milton Keynes (BBL)

    ESP
    Garces Ruben 206 C/F 73 Estudiant. (ACB)

    ISR
    Moran Ulysses 202 C 70 Lev Hasharon (National L.)

    ITA
    Douglas Ruben 193 G 79 Climamio (SerieA)
    Hicks Michael 190 G 76 Agricola G. (Lega2)

    NIC
    * Salazar Pedro 204 C 72 Pumas (ACB)

    PUR
    * Butler Mario 203 C 57 Arecibo (BSN)
    Ellis Eliezer 195 F 74 Humacao (BSN)
    * Jackson Leroy 193 G 68 Bayamon (BSN)
    * Myers Guillermo 203 F/C 68 Coamo (BSN)

    RUS
    * Cota Ed 187 G 75 Dyn.St.P. (A Superleague)

    SCG
    * Warren Chris 196 F 81 Reflex (1A x)

    TUR
    Lloreda Jaime 203 F/C 80 Karsiyaka (D1)

    URU
    Cardenas Eric 206 C 73 Olimpia (LUB Regelation Group)

    USA
    Alvarado Amir 198 G/F 84 Marshalltown CC
    Archibold Eduardo 205 F/C 87 High School USA
    Arenas Gilbert 189 G 82 Washington W.
    Chambers Joshua 195 G/F 83 N.Colorado
    Daley Kevin 196 F 76 Harlem G.
    De Gracia Reyjavick 203 F/C 81 John Brown
    Etienne Nino 186 G Texas Wesleyan
    Herrera Abdul 207 C/F 85 Cincinnati
    Levy Jamaal 206 C/F 83 Wake Forest
    Mendieta Abdiel 178 G 81 John Brown
    Palacios Odin 197 G/F Anderson
    Palacios Javier 187 G 81 N.Alabama
    * Pinnock J.R. 196 G 83 George Washington
    Portillo Abdul 210 C High School USA
    Reyes Elvin 188 G 80 Des Moines H.
    St.Rose Isaacs 185 G John Brown
    Tesis Joel 206 C 85 John Brown
    K-2 Young
    04-16-2005, 04:31 PM

    I never said that they cant, but its going to be difficult. Its a wide open tournament. With that team, Panama put themselves in position to fight for a medal, they are, in talent, over venezuela, uruguay and Mexico, right there in the level of Puerto Rico (without Arroyo), but I dont see them over USA, Argentina, Brazil and Dominican Republic. After all, we are talking names, you dont win with a piece of paper with names, you win it in the court. and in centrobasket all the mayor teams played without their top players (Panama, Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic, Mexico, Virgin Islands)
    Last edited by stuart; 05-24-2006 at 06:01 AM.

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    K-2 Young
    04-16-2005, 04:34 PM

    Guillermo Myers retired already





    will Lloreda play with Panama??? I read he was asking for money to play for em
    panamared
    04-16-2005, 07:04 PM

    Originally posted by K-2 Young
    Guillermo Myers retired already




    will Lloreda play with Panama??? I read he was asking for money to play for em
    this is one of the problems why we haved done anything lately , some player in panama look for themself and not for the team.
    but i hope he does play for panama , this could be the year that panama get back to the top positions again .
    panamared
    09-02-2005, 01:31 AM

    all i have to said is that i told you so , jejejejeje , panama national team arguably is the best team in the seacond round and we had some bad luck and bad calls from the referees in this tournament , especially in the games agains brazil and venezuela the one the we lost by 1 point and in the last second , panama dominated the boards in all the games that we played except against usa, that really was our worst game, panama maybe wont be in the semifinals but we really should be there in the semifinals, but we got one of the tickets to the world champioship and thats ok for me and we did it with a panama national team b but a really strong b team combine with some of our elites players like micheal hicks , tonito garcia, jair peralta and with some young players like jaime lloreda , pinnock jr and joel munos.

    well done panama , well done . :clap: :clap: :clap: to me this team is the number :1st: in this tournament. :great:

    another thing when are we going to get the panamenian flag??????? in the avatars and the smiles???
    K-2 Young
    09-02-2005, 07:33 AM

    told me what?
    you qualified, congrats...so what?
    you qualified with the best team you could assemble, the guys that are always there for you
    we were eliminated with almost all off our starting lineup back home and our 6th man resting too.

    OMG... i wanted to what this games so bad

    P.S. star preparating for the WBC
    get Cota ready to play and nationalize a Center, but a really good one
    panamared
    09-02-2005, 08:03 AM

    told me what?
    you qualified, congrats...so what?
    you qualified with the best team you could assemble, the guys that are always there for you
    we were eliminated with almost all off our starting lineup back home and our 6th man resting too.

    OMG... i wanted to what this games so bad

    P.S. star preparating for the WBC
    get Cota ready to play and nationalize a Center, but a really good one
    please yea right , who you need ???? arroyo ??? fajardo ??? man we have the players to compite against any team including puerto rico and you know it ok.
    and now that we qualified to te world champioship, i am pretty sure that gilberto arenas , ed cota , ruben douglas , ruben garcez , jammal levy and more players are going to join the national team and no man thats no the best team from panama that is playing in the tournament :laugh: :enjoy:
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    Last edited by stuart; 05-24-2006 at 05:54 AM.

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    Senior Member daniab's Avatar
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    Hey Guys,Guillermo will coach Sagesse of Lebanon.He was released from cyprus few days ago.
    So is he a good coach ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by daniab View Post
    Hey Guys,Guillermo will coach Sagesse of Lebanon.He was released from cyprus few days ago.
    So is he a good coach ?
    I think not. He's managed to get more bad results than good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alermac View Post
    I think not. He's managed to get more bad results than good.
    Guillermo coached his first game in Lebanon with Sagesse yesterday and helped them gain a victory. The commentator mentioned that the guy looks like Diego Maradona and in fact there is quite a resemblance (I wish I had a pic of him though)
    Last edited by Khalid80; 02-03-2009 at 10:43 AM.

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    Default Panama National Team


    Tournament of the Americas
    August 27 .vs. Dominican Republic
    August 28 .vs. Venezuela
    August 29 .vs. Argentina
    August 30 .vs. Brazil


    Panama called their players for COCABA Championship
    PANAMA - The Panamanian Basketball Federation (FEPABA) announced the 24 players called for the 2009 COCABA Championship to be played in Cancun, Mexico from August 5-10. This is a qualifier for the 2010 Centrobasket Tournament which qualifies for the 2011 FIBA Americas Championship.

    Some of the players called were in the 2006 FIBA World Championship like: Jair Peralta, Max Gomez, Dionisio Gómez, Jaime Lloreda, Michael Hicks, Antonio Garcia and Jamaal Levy. Also some players called are Danilo Pinnock Jr. (Capitanes de Arecibo, Puerto Rico) and Gary Forbes (Trotamundos de Carabobo, Venezuela). Pinnock participated in the 2008 Centrobasket and Forbes in the 2007 FIBA Americas Championship.

    FEPABA also called some NCAA players like Josimar Ayarza (Southern Mississippi) and Gyno Pomares from San Diego. Also Abdul Herrera (Kansas State) and Jonathan and Daniel King.


    The practices are scheduled to start on July 15 at Roberto Duran Arena.
    http://fibaamericas.com/noticiasread...W&t=MIUYOLWTIU


    They started practices yesterday

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    Senior Member alermac's Avatar
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    So, they're mostly the same guys who surprised everyone in 2005 by qualifying to the World Championship. Rough and high-rebounding big men like Lloreda, D. Gómez, García and Levy; nice scoring swingmen like Pinnock and Hicks, and Peralta as a steady PG.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alermac View Post
    So, they're mostly the same guys who surprised everyone in 2005 by qualifying to the World Championship. Rough and high-rebounding big men like Lloreda, D. Gómez, García and Levy; nice scoring swingmen like Pinnock and Hicks, and Peralta as a steady PG.
    not really, there are a bunch of new NCAA players. like Gary Forbes and the King Brothers, etc
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    Default Panama??

    I've been vacationing in Panama and really like it down there. I've also been trying to research basketball in Panama. I've heard about the CBL league which is only like 9-12? games long. Metrobasket is something I've read about briefly. Basically I'm clueless and was wondering if someone more informed could explain to me how it all works.

    American Players?
    How many games and when are games?
    On TV? Sponsors? Quality of play?
    Budgets?
    Teams owned by foreign investment?

    Thanks!

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    Administrator mvblair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by panamafan View Post
    I've been vacationing in Panama and really like it down there. I've also been trying to research basketball in Panama. I've heard about the CBL league which is only like 9-12? games long. Metrobasket is something I've read about briefly. Basically I'm clueless and was wondering if someone more informed could explain to me how it all works.
    I don't know much about either leagues, except that both are semi-professional leagues. Most of their players have regular day jobs.
    American Players?
    There are probably a few Panamanian-Americans, but not many. There are a couple on the Panamanian national team, including JR Pinnock, who I think is playing in Greece right now. There is also Isaac Saint Rose in Costa Rica and Amir Alvarado in Costa Rica, two of the best players in that league. Another good player, Ivan Jaen, used to play in Costa Rica, too. Panama no doubt has some kids in the American NCAA, too.
    How many games and when are games?
    The Circuito de Baloncesto Superior has 10 games and then a play-off.
    On TV? Sponsors?
    I have no idea. By the looks of the uniforms, they don't have big sponsors, but they probably have a few small Panamanian sponsors, like big stores that supply them with equipment and maybe a little money. Businessmen who like basketball tend to give a little to their local teams.
    Quality of play?
    It depends on who you compare them to. If you compare them to my YMCA group, than the CBS is amazing. My guess is that it's good basketball to watch, but much worse than, say Puerto Rico's BSN, Argentina's league, or even Mexico's league.
    Budgets?
    Minimal. Any investment in these leagues will probably go toward renting buildings to play in, travel, and paying for referees.
    Teams owned by foreign investment?
    None. The biggest foreign investment in Central American basketball went to Costa Rica last year when a couple ex-NBA players tried to strike some confidence in their league, but it went belly-up very quickly. Any foreign investment in Panama is probably coming from a chain store like Payless Shoes or something that supplies the team with shoes.

    Even though it might sound like a pretty bad league, I'm sure you can watch some great basketball games there. I think the CBS goes from August to October, so check the Panamanian papers around that time to see when and where games are played. Personally, I find this type of league very appealing. It's semi-professional basketball. The players aren't going to be on a big European team anytime soon, but they're still pretty good. You'll probably find some amazing athletes. They probably have open practices and you can meet the players after games and cheer next to their family and friends. The gyms that they play in are probably a little dark and a little cold and the floor might even be polished concrete, but it's a great experience. It's definitely worth checking out.
    "I really like the attitudes of eagles. They never give up. When they grab a fish or something else, they never let it go. It doesn't matter. In a book, they write they find a skeleton of [an] eagle and there is no fish. It means that the fish beat him and killed him, but he didn't let go." -- Donatas Motiejunas

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    I got the impression of the basketball in Panama that you describe. It just led me to wonder a few things is all. Panama has a great reputation for foreign investment, retirement, vacationing, etc and yet the basketball league doesn't seem to reflect that.

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    Administrator mvblair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by panamafan View Post
    I got the impression of the basketball in Panama that you describe. It just led me to wonder a few things is all. Panama has a great reputation for foreign investment, retirement, vacationing, etc and yet the basketball league doesn't seem to reflect that.
    That's true. Do you think it's a case of basketball versus soccer?
    "I really like the attitudes of eagles. They never give up. When they grab a fish or something else, they never let it go. It doesn't matter. In a book, they write they find a skeleton of [an] eagle and there is no fish. It means that the fish beat him and killed him, but he didn't let go." -- Donatas Motiejunas

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    Abdul Herrera expected to join Panama - Jun 4, 2010 (by Eurobasket News)

    Abdul Herrera (208-C-85, college: Cincinnati) will join Panama for the 2010 Centrobasket tournament. The 24-year-old centre will definitely strengthen the Panamanian NT who are expected to miss some of their key performers during the tourney. Abdul Herrera was last seen at the Kansas State University. He tallied 1.3 points and 1.3 rebounds per game but left the team back in December 2008. Earlier the centre played for Cincinnati and Hutchinson Junior College.
    Panama got into Group A at 2010 Centrobasket tournament. They will play together with Virgin Islands, Dominican Republic, British Virgin Islands and Jamaica. The 2010 Centrobasket Championship qualifies the top four teams for the 2011 FIBA Americas Championship (Pre-Olympic), the top eight for the 2010 Central American and Caribbean Games in Mayagez, Puerto Rico and the top three for the 2011 Pan-American Games scheduled for Guadalajara, Mexico.
    http://www.latinbasket.com/Panama/ba...?NewsID=192329
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    PAN - Three veterans and Nugget Forbes ready to help Panama

    PANAMA CITY (FIBA Americas Championship) - Panama stunned the Americas six years ago when coach Nolan Richardson steered the tiny country into an unlikely spot at the FIBA World Championship in Japan.

    Basketball fans in Panama now have cause to believe their team has a chance of making it to next year's FIBA Olympic Qualifying Tournament.

    Dionisio Gomez Camargo, Gary Forbes, Danilo Pinnock Jr and Jaime Lloreda have confirmed they will represent Panama at the FIBA Americas Championship in Argentina.

    Word that Panama City-born Forbes will play came from his mother, Ana.

    "He will be in Panama on July to be available for the coach," she said.

    Forbes, 26, is currently playing in the NBA post-season with the Denver Nuggets.

    Pinnock, Gomez and Lloreda were in the Panama side that finished fifth at the 2005 FIBA Americas Championship.

    Panama finished ninth at the 2007 FIBA Americas Championship in Las Vegas and eighth in 2009 in San Juan.
    http://www.fiba.com/pages/eng/fc/new...6501/arti.html
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    Chris Warren has announced that he will not play for Panama this summer, citing fatigue.

    http://www.fiba.com/pages/eng/fc/new...7021/arti.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by CKR13 View Post
    Chris Warren has announced that he will not play for Panama this summer, citing fatigue.

    http://www.fiba.com/pages/eng/fc/new...7021/arti.html
    I don't see that as much of a blow really, Panama's biggest problem is that all there best players all play the same position (Michael Hick, Douglas, Cota, Garce, Forbes, Pinnock) wings and some times they are force to play shooting guards as point guards and even small forwards as power forwards. So Losing some of those players might turn out to be a good thing for Panama more than bad thing at the end. As Long as they don't Lose Gary Forbes (NBA player for Denver) Pinnock and Hick, they really would have much of a problem at the 2-3 positions. But, I really doubt Hick plays anyway. But still without Hick they would do just fine with the wings they have. What they Really need is a really Big physical Center and a Point Guard, A center more than anything because they can't keep playing Lloreda at the 5 at this level, in a Perfect World Lloreda would play the 3 but he is too fat. and They aready have Munos at the point so if they can get him back that position would NOT be a problem, but Munos has refused to play with Panama a couple of times already, even though he was at the last FIBA Americas in Puerto Rico, but they need to hire a Coach that can control him and make him pass more and shoot less. That Puerto Rican Coach they had at the FIBA Americas 2009 was a disaster not sure how someone so incompetent got that job. Other than that, They are a very very very scary team if they can get all their player together (they have never being able to do that not even for the World Championships in 2006) so they don't really need Warren
    Last edited by Ciscorlie Horford; 05-31-2011 at 06:26 PM.
    ABUSADOR !!!, ABUSADOR !!!, ABUSADOR !!!, ABUSADOR !!!, ABUSADOR !!!

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