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donmar
10-23-2007, 04:24 AM
I just wanna ask if anyone here knows about the Philippine national team that competed in the 1986 Asian Games are the same team that competed in the 1986 PBA season as a guest team?... just wonmdering... cheeers!

bolabasket
10-23-2007, 05:32 AM
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x287/GearX_2007/seoul.gif

donmar
10-23-2007, 05:36 AM
Is it the same team as the one playing as a guest team in the PBA?

joel23
10-23-2007, 12:34 PM
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x287/GearX_2007/seoul.gif

It is not Philippine team line-up played in the PBA...

Servinio
10-23-2007, 06:17 PM
I just wanna ask if anyone here knows about the Philippine national team that competed in the 1986 Asian Games are the same team that competed in the 1986 PBA season as a guest team?... just wonmdering... cheeers!
YES, it was essentially the same team that was to compete in the 1986 Seoul Asian Games. With the San Miguel franchise filing a leave of absence before the start of the First Conference, the Nationals carried the banner of Magnolia.

The old Northern Consolidated team that won the Asian Men's Championship in January and a ticket to the World Championships in Spain later in the year was disbanded. Project Director Danding Cojuangco, Coach Ron Jacobs and naturalized players Jeff Moore, Dennis Still and Arthur Engelland all fled to the United States after the ouster of President Ferdinand Marcos in February.

A new team had to be formed consisting of Northern remnants and the best college talent available. The players included the likes of Eric Altamirano, Allan Caidic, Glenn Capacio, Jerry and Harmon Codinera, Jojo Lastimosa, Samboy Lim, Ronnie Magsanoc, Alvin Patrimonio, Dindo Pumaren, Elmer Reyes and the late Jack Tanuan.

Suddenly, San Miguel announced that would be returning to the PBA by the 1986 Third Conference. The rest of the Northern players like Hector Calma, Franz Pumaren, Yves Dignadice and company turned pro to form the core of the new San Miguel franchise. Lim and Reyes would later join the team immediately after the Asian Games.

donmar
10-24-2007, 12:26 AM
YES, it was essentially the same team that was to compete in the 1986 Seoul Asian Games. With the San Miguel franchise filing a leave of absence before the start of the First Conference, the Nationals carried the banner of Magnolia.

The old Northern Consolidated team that won the Asian Men's Championship in January and a ticket to the World Championships in Spain later in the year was disbanded. Project Director Danding Cojuangco, Coach Ron Jacobs and naturalized players Jeff Moore, Dennis Still and Arthur Engelland all fled to the United States after the ouster of President Ferdinand Marcos in February.

A new team had to be formed consisting of Northern remnants and the best college talent available. The players included the likes of Eric Altamirano, Allan Caidic, Glenn Capacio, Jerry and Harmon Codinera, Jojo Lastimosa, Samboy Lim, Ronnie Magsanoc, Alvin Patrimonio, Dindo Pumaren, Elmer Reyes and the late Jack Tanuan.

Suddenly, San Miguel announced that would be returning to the PBA by the 1986 Third Conference. The rest of the Northern players like Hector Calma, Franz Pumaren, Yves Dignadice and company turned pro to form the core of the new San Miguel franchise. Lim and Reyes would later join the team immediately after the Asian Games.

Cheers bro... I appreciated it!... is that mean the likes of Allan Caidic, Samboy Lim and Hector Calma played in the PBA as amateurs from 1984 to 1986?

nardong_putik
10-24-2007, 02:10 AM
Wow nice history!

Please keep posting and we learned a lot from this kind of topic.

Thank you

bolabasket
10-24-2007, 02:17 AM
1985 Northern Consolidated

please find the complete NCC line-up in the 1985 PBA season:

5. Franz Pumaren
6. Leoncio Tan, Jr.
7. Elmer Reyes
8. Alfonso Solis
9. Avelino "Samboy" Lim
10. Arthur "Chip" Engelland
11. Tonichi Yturri
12. Yves Dignadice
13. Dennis Still
14. Hector Calma
15. Jeffrey Moore
16. Allan Caidic
17. Alfredo Almario
18. Jerry Codiņera
19. Ludovico Valenciano

Coach: Ron Jacobs

THis was the team that won the 1985 Reinforced Conference, sweeping Manila Beer 4-0. See if you still recognize some of the names.

joel23
10-24-2007, 04:07 AM
YES, it was essentially the same team that was to compete in the 1986 Seoul Asian Games. With the San Miguel franchise filing a leave of absence before the start of the First Conference, the Nationals carried the banner of Magnolia.

The old Northern Consolidated team that won the Asian Men's Championship in January and a ticket to the World Championships in Spain later in the year was disbanded. Project Director Danding Cojuangco, Coach Ron Jacobs and naturalized players Jeff Moore, Dennis Still and Arthur Engelland all fled to the United States after the ouster of President Ferdinand Marcos in February.

A new team had to be formed consisting of Northern remnants and the best college talent available. The players included the likes of Eric Altamirano, Allan Caidic, Glenn Capacio, Jerry and Harmon Codinera, Jojo Lastimosa, Samboy Lim, Ronnie Magsanoc, Alvin Patrimonio, Dindo Pumaren, Elmer Reyes and the late Jack Tanuan.

Suddenly, San Miguel announced that would be returning to the PBA by the 1986 Third Conference. The rest of the Northern players like Hector Calma, Franz Pumaren, Yves Dignadice and company turned pro to form the core of the new San Miguel franchise. Lim and Reyes would later join the team immediately after the Asian Games.

Great! I'm very appreciate it! :) So 1986 Philippine team a new team for preparing for Asian Games after the ABC and EDSA revolution right??? What are sponsors? I know Joe Lipa has tookover as headcoach from Ron Jacobs right?

Sakamoto
10-24-2007, 02:57 PM
YES, it was essentially the same team that was to compete in the 1986 Seoul Asian Games. With the San Miguel franchise filing a leave of absence before the start of the First Conference, the Nationals carried the banner of Magnolia.

The old Northern Consolidated team that won the Asian Men's Championship in January and a ticket to the World Championships in Spain later in the year was disbanded. Project Director Danding Cojuangco, Coach Ron Jacobs and naturalized players Jeff Moore, Dennis Still and Arthur Engelland all fled to the United States after the ouster of President Ferdinand Marcos in February.

A new team had to be formed consisting of Northern remnants and the best college talent available. The players included the likes of Eric Altamirano, Allan Caidic, Glenn Capacio, Jerry and Harmon Codinera, Jojo Lastimosa, Samboy Lim, Ronnie Magsanoc, Alvin Patrimonio, Dindo Pumaren, Elmer Reyes and the late Jack Tanuan.

Suddenly, San Miguel announced that would be returning to the PBA by the 1986 Third Conference. The rest of the Northern players like Hector Calma, Franz Pumaren, Yves Dignadice and company turned pro to form the core of the new San Miguel franchise. Lim and Reyes would later join the team immediately after the Asian Games.
Sir you forgot to include Harmon Codinera in the line up. He is one of the good center in the team until he suffered an injury in the game againts S.Korea in the early part of the semis match. We lost to Korea but it was controversial because the running jumper by Allan Caidic that went in was called an offensive foul.

Servinio
10-24-2007, 05:18 PM
Cheers bro... I appreciated it!... is that mean the likes of Allan Caidic, Samboy Lim and Hector Calma played in the PBA as amateurs from 1984 to 1986?
YES, the national team played under the name of Northern Consolidated as a guest team. As per the agreement with the then BAP, the players would retain their amateur status and still represent the country. Open basketball was far from everyone's minds back then.

So when EDSA I broke out in February, the whole country was in some sort of disarray. Hence, the 1986 PBA season started later than usual, April to be exact.

Samboy Lim, Elmer Reyes, Jerry Codinera and Allan Caidic were the former Northern players drafted to play in the new national team under Coach Jose Lipa. The rest of the squad was in limbo as their loyalties were still with the exiled Mr. Cojuangco. I wrote earlier that San Miguel took a leave from the PBA, reducing the field to only six teams! The nationals though were sponsored by Magnolia.

Lim and Reyes would reunite with their old Northern mates Hector Calma, Yves Dignadice, Pido Jarencio, Alfie Almario, Franz Pumaren and Tonichi Yturri when the PBA allowed the re-entry of San Miguel as Magnolia in the 1986 Third Conference. In order to have a strong team, San Miguel was allowed to bring in the Northern core. Caidic would turn pro the next year via Great Taste and Codinera in 1988 via Purefoods.

By the way, there was a burning debate at the end of the year. There were some who contended that Lim should have been Rookie of the Year and not Ginebra's Dondon Ampalayo. It turned out that although Lim had better overall statistics, he did not play enough games since he became a regular PBA pro only in the Third Conference. Hence, his stats with the national team in the earlier conferences were disregarded.

donmar
10-25-2007, 02:19 AM
YES, the national team played under the name of Northern Consolidated as a guest team. As per the agreement with the then BAP, the players would retain their amateur status and still represent the country. Open basketball was far from everyone's minds back then.

So when EDSA I broke out in February, the whole country was in some sort of disarray. Hence, the 1986 PBA season started later than usual, April to be exact.

Samboy Lim, Elmer Reyes, Jerry Codinera and Allan Caidic were the former Northern players drafted to play in the new national team under Coach Jose Lipa. The rest of the squad was in limbo as their loyalties were still with the exiled Mr. Cojuangco. I wrote earlier that San Miguel took a leave from the PBA, reducing the field to only six teams! The nationals though were sponsored by Magnolia.

Lim and Reyes would reunite with their old Northern mates Hector Calma, Yves Dignadice, Pido Jarencio, Alfie Almario, Franz Pumaren and Tonichi Yturri when the PBA allowed the re-entry of San Miguel as Magnolia in the 1986 Third Conference. In order to have a strong team, San Miguel was allowed to bring in the Northern core. Caidic would turn pro the next year via Great Taste and Codinera in 1988 via Purefoods.

By the way, there was a burning debate at the end of the year. There were some who contended that Lim should have been Rookie of the Year and not Ginebra's Dondon Ampalayo. It turned out that although Lim had better overall statistics, he did not play enough games since he became a regular PBA pro only in the Third Conference. Hence, his stats with the national team in the earlier conferences were disregarded.

Thanks a lot! :)... I really appreaciate it!...

ankle breaker
10-25-2007, 01:55 PM
that clearly shows that even before, we are already relying on to some naturalized players to help us win international games. therefore, it's not an issue at all. why can't why do it now when we already did it before? the only thing that can help us making it to the world championships or olympics are the fil-ams and naturalized players.

mon23
04-29-2010, 01:35 PM
It was the same team that played in the 1986 Asian Games, they carry the colors of Magnolia Quench Plus in the 1986 PBA All Filipino, finishing last place in a 7-team field with a 1-win, 5-loss record, they lost to Alaska in a knockout game.

members of that '86 team under coach Joe Lipa.

Samboy Lim
Allan Caidic
Elmer Reyes
Jerry Codinera
Jojo Lastimosa
Ronnie Magsanoc
Glen Capacio
Alvin Patrimonio
Dindo Pumaren
Eric Altamirano
Harmon Codinera
Jack Tanuan

Jay P. Mercado
04-29-2010, 02:22 PM
This only goes to show how good a coach Ron Jacobs was. Joe Lipa was no slouch, and despite him handling a team that had the core of the NCC national team, he had difficulty making this team competitive in the PBA. Of course, the PBA was still very competitive back then as the best players of the country were all in the PBA. Jaworski, Fernandez, Cezar, Villamin, Victorino, Guidaben, Brown, among others, were all at their respective primes or near primes that it would be difficult to beat the teams that they played for. Of course, Lipa also missed the heart and soul of NCC - Hector Calma - who was the driving force behind Jacobs' set plays. Lipa had to contend with upstart point guards like Magsanoc, Altamirano and Dindo Pumaren - all collegiate standouts but were still lacking in international experience.

But then, had Jacobs been handling the team, even without the three naturalized players, NCC would still have been competitive against the PBA teams. They may not have won the championship as teams like Tanduay, Ginebra and Great Taste were still formidable but they would have been competitive.

Jacobs was also a master of scouting opponents prior to the game. This was essentially one of Jacobs' biggest contribution to Philippine basketball - the art of preparation. Jacobs was a stickler for this and didn't want to come into the game without knowing what lies ahead. He understood his team's weaknesses but exploited their strengths and made sure that he focused on his opponents weak spots when plotting out his game plan.

If open basketball was already around in 1986 and the best PBA talents were to be made available, who would have been part of the RP team among the pros? I surmise our slotmen would be Fernandez, Guidaben and Victorino, our power forwards would be Cezar, Abe King and Villamin, our small forwards would be Willie Pearson and Allan Caidic, off guards would be Ricky Brown and Samboy Lim and our PG's would be Jaworski and Calma. Brown would alternate as PG in case of foul trouble for either the Big J or Calma. Our shooting would be handled by Brown, Jaworski, Lim, Caidic and Pearson. And while we would get offense inside from the three big men, the three power forwards would take care of guarding the team's best center / forward and collaring the boards.

GoYankees
05-03-2010, 05:32 AM
Joe Lipa coached an ALL Pinoy team to a 3rd place finish in the 86 Asian games.
Should have been 2nd (knockout semi against SK).

Jacobs always has his naturalized players.

mon23
05-25-2010, 04:52 AM
Cheers bro... I appreciated it!... is that mean the likes of Allan Caidic, Samboy Lim and Hector Calma played in the PBA as amateurs from 1984 to 1986?

and that also helps the popularity of the PBA before, amateur players gets a chance to play in the PBA as members of the national team, and once they turn pro, fans already knew them and they play like veterans and seasoned pros.

if we count NCC's title triumph in the 1985 third conference, Samboy, Calma and Dignadice should have 10 titles instead of 9, while Allan Caidic was a member of 5 championship teams instead of 4. the league set-up with national teams playing for one conference gave opportunity for the likes of Patrimonio, Paras, Lastimosa to play against legends Bogs Adornado and Atoy Co, who sooner would retire, and great imports such as Hackett, Thirdkill and Young during the RP team's guest stint in the 1987 Open Conference.

when SMART-Gilas participate last October in the PBA Philippine Cup, I thought they'l play in the first game and get the same share of exposure like the national teams before, only to find out they played in the afternoon at 3:30 in a triple-bill with their games not televised nor being covered.

mon23
09-13-2010, 02:21 AM
For the Record, the succeding National teams that played as guest in the PBA.

1987 1st Conference - (2 win, 10 loss) were 2-4 at the end of the first round of eliminations, won their first game against the David Thirdkill led-Tanduay, where Patrimonio topscored with 31 points and led the nationals to an upset win, and their fourth game against Shell by one point on Glen Capacio's buzzer-beating shot. The Nationals lost to Shell in a KO game for the last quarterfinals slot, their overall record was 2-11.

1988 All-Filipino - (3 win, 9 loss) two wins over Shell and one against Purefoods, some members of that National squad includes Nelson Asaytono, Boy Cabahug, Ricric Marata, Ato Agustin, Romy Dela Rosa.

1989 All-Filipino - (0 win, 6 loss) played only in the first round of eliminations, and lost to PBA teams by a margin of about 25 or more points, that group coach by Derick Pumaren and had Limpot, Johnedel Cardel, Meneses, Peter Jao, Gido Babilonia, Bong Solomon were highly-criticized for lack of fighting heart which shows when we got dethroned by Malaysia in the SEA games basketball Gold medal.

Unlike when the RP team carried the name of NCC and Magnolia in the PBA, from '87-'89 the Nationals don the Philippine Colors, RFM-Swift did sponsored the National team the last two years.

mon23
09-13-2010, 02:30 AM
1985 Northern Consolidated

please find the complete NCC line-up in the 1985 PBA season:

5. Franz Pumaren
6. Leoncio Tan, Jr.
7. Elmer Reyes
8. Alfonso Solis
9. Avelino "Samboy" Lim
10. Arthur "Chip" Engelland
11. Tonichi Yturri
12. Yves Dignadice
13. Dennis Still
14. Hector Calma
15. Jeffrey Moore
16. Allan Caidic
17. Alfredo Almario
18. Jerry Codiņera
19. Ludovico Valenciano

Coach: Ron Jacobs

THis was the team that won the 1985 Reinforced Conference, sweeping Manila Beer 4-0. See if you still recognize some of the names.

The Members of the Northern team that swept Manila Beer 4-0 in the 1985 Reinforced Conference Finals

4. Alfie Almario
5. Franz Pumaren
6. Pido Jarencio
7. Elmer Reyes
8. Allan Caidic
9. Samboy Lim
11. Tonichi Yturri
12. Yves Dignadice
13. Dennis Still
14. Hector Calma
15. Jeff Moore
16. Benjie Guitierrez
18. Jerry Codinera

Chip Engelland was part of NCC in the first conference of 1985 where they placed 3rd. he was not in the lineup when Northern won the third conference along with the ABC triumph in '86.

Jay P. Mercado
10-06-2010, 09:31 AM
The Members of the Northern team that swept Manila Beer 4-0 in the 1985 Reinforced Conference Finals

4. Alfie Almario
5. Franz Pumaren
6. Pido Jarencio
7. Elmer Reyes
8. Allan Caidic
9. Samboy Lim
11. Tonichi Yturri
12. Yves Dignadice
13. Dennis Still
14. Hector Calma
15. Jeff Moore
16. Benjie Guitierrez
18. Jerry Codinera

Chip Engelland was part of NCC in the first conference of 1985 where they placed 3rd. he was not in the lineup when Northern won the third conference along with the ABC triumph in '86.

Best recollection of when these guys joined the PBA:

4. Alfie Almario - Magnolia, 1986, direct hire
5. Franz Pumaren - Magnolia, 1986, direct hire
6. Pido Jarencio - Magnolia, 1986, direct hire
7. Elmer Reyes - Magnolia, 1986, direct hire
8. Allan Caidic - Great Taste, 1987 first pick overall
9. Samboy Lim - Magnolia, 1986, direct hire
11. Tonichi Yturri - Magnolia, 1986, direct hire
12. Yves Dignadice - Magnolia, 1986, direct hire
13. Dennis Still - left the country after EDSA I
14. Hector Calma - Magnolia, 1986, direct hire
15. Jeff Moore - left the country after EDSA I
16. Benjie Guitierrez - didn't turn pro (not sure)
18. Jerry Codinera - Purefoods, 1988, direct hire
6. Leoncio Tan, Jr. - Swift, 1990, draft pick (not sure)
8. Alfonso Solis - Shell, 1987, 2nd pick overall
10. Arthur "Chip" Engelland - left the country after EDSA I
19. Ludovico Valenciano - Alaska, 1986 first round pick (not sure)

mon23
11-03-2011, 04:02 AM
I Check out old newspapers from the National Library, How RP-Magnolia fared in their 7 games played in the PBA All-Filipino Conference of 1986.

July ? - lost to Shell
July 15: lost to Alaska, 112-117
July 17: won over Ginebra, 97-88
July 22: lost to Tanduay, 90-117
July 24: lost to Manila Beer, 92-104
July 27: lost to Great Taste, 108-109 (Clips of this game were uploaded by Ricardo Brown on Youtube)

July 31: lost to Alaska, 96-100 (last quarterfinal slot)

Percival O. Flores
11-04-2011, 07:01 AM
Looking at JPM's listing, I can't help but point out the difference between Smart Gilas of 2011 as compared to NCC of 1986.

With a few exceptions, the most notable being Allan Caidic, the NCC players were practically given to Magnolia Cheese, the San Miguel team that was being revived after an absence of two conference. They were promoted outright to the pro ranks without going through the amateur draft.

Then, as now, my contention then was that for purposes of parity, the PBA could have deferred the re-entry of San Miguel for 1987 and the NCC players be put to the draft so as to give every team equal opportunities to secure their services.

But no, the PBA wanted a regular seventh member that badly, a charter member at that, that it gave that concession for San Miguel/Magnolia for it to recruit the NCC players for the 1986 Open Conference.

No other team was given the same concession before or since then. Purefoods in 1988 was allowed to recruit Lastimosa, Jerry Codiņera, and Alvin Patrimonion. Tanduay, Red Bull, and Welcoat were given similar concession when they entered or re-entered the league in 1999, 2000 and 2006 but not under the same overly-generous terms that were allowed San Miguel to acquire the NCC players.

Thus the core of NCC players except Caidic, joined veterancs Manny Paner and Alan Abelgas and the two imports (Rufus Harris and Banks) for the 1986 Open Conference. The team ended up with a 2-10 record and last place finish.

Beginning the 1987 Reinforced up to the Grand Slam season of 1989, San Miguel won 6 of the 7 conferences. It was dominant well into the mid 1990's.

At least the Smart Gilas team was dispersed via the 2011 draft.

Jay P. Mercado
11-04-2011, 07:50 AM
Absolutely correct, POF. I can imagine how history would have changed significantly had the NCC players been dispersed via the rookie draft instead of giving concessions to the returning Magnolia Cheese team who took a 2-month leave of absence on account of EDSA I as their Chairman, Danding Cojuangco, was exiled and a change of management under Andres Soriano, III ensued.

Had this happened, what would have been the repercussions?

1. Would San Miguel, a team that arguably became the second most popular team in the land because of Samboy, Hector, Yves and later, with Allan and Ramon Fernandez, become that popular had these players been put in the draft?

2. Hector Calma and Franz Pumaren would have been part of the 1986 RP Team that won the "Golden Bronze" in the Seoul Asian Games. Who knows, we would have defeated South Korea and copped at least a silver medal for it.

3. The 1987 first pick of the draft would have been a tossup amongst Caidic, Calma and Lim. The 1987 draft may have been described as one of the deepest drafts ever with the NCC nucleus. If Caidic went to Presto, Shell would have gotten Samboy while Alaska may have taken in Hector. Ginebra may have wound up with Yves Dignadice (because of Jawo's penchant of getting a big man). Or maybe Magnolia would have been given a high draft pick and would have chosen Calma to be the cornerstone of the franchise.

It would have been interesting indeed...

reamily
11-04-2011, 08:01 AM
Absolutely correct, POF. I can imagine how history would have changed significantly had the NCC players been dispersed via the rookie draft instead of giving concessions to the returning Magnolia Cheese team who took a 2-month leave of absence on account of EDSA I as their Chairman, Danding Cojuangco, was exiled and a change of management under Andres Soriano, III ensued.

Had this happened, what would have been the repercussions?

1. Would San Miguel, a team that arguably became the second most popular team in the land because of Samboy, Hector, Yves and later, with Allan and Ramon Fernandez, become that popular had these players been put in the draft?

2. Hector Calma and Franz Pumaren would have been part of the 1986 RP Team that won the "Golden Bronze" in the Seoul Asian Games. Who knows, we would have defeated South Korea and copped at least a silver medal for it.

3. The 1987 first pick of the draft would have been a tossup amongst Caidic, Calma and Lim. The 1987 draft may have been described as one of the deepest drafts ever with the NCC nucleus. If Caidic went to Presto, Shell would have gotten Samboy while Alaska may have taken in Hector. Ginebra may have wound up with Yves Dignadice (because of Jawo's penchant of getting a big man). Or maybe Magnolia would have been given a high draft pick and would have chosen Calma to be the cornerstone of the franchise.

It would have been interesting indeed...

Sir its the same degree is what if the present gilas players were not dispersed thru draft and given concession as an expansion team for Mr. Manny V. Pangilinan?

Percival O. Flores
11-04-2011, 08:04 AM
Yes, JPM. That's why I did not mention Mr. Danding Cojuangco because it was the Soriano's who were back at the helm of San Miguel in the aftermath of the first EDSA Revolution.

But regardless of who was at the helm of that time, it can't be helped to point out that the NCC players could have been dispersed to all the teams, much like the Gilas boys in 2010.

Stil, Mr. Cojuangco may also be responsible for what has happened because it was he who announced San Miguel's leave of absence from the PBA after the 1985 season to concentrate on amateur basketball, of which he was then the acknowledged godfather.

Thus, Alaska's first team was made up of the Magnolia Quench Plus, including even the playing assistant coach, Norman Black.

Now here is the poser, JPM, do you think this would have happened if Mr. Cojuangco did not disband the San Miguel professional team after the 1985 season?

fordmo47
11-04-2011, 08:04 AM
Sir its the same degree is what if the present gilas players were not dispersed thru draft and given concession as an expansion team for Mr. Manny V. Pangilinan?

Then the RSJ team minus Paul Lee will not only play a lone All-Star game but a whole season instead. :)

Silent Killer
11-04-2011, 08:07 AM
a 3rd team for MVP group with gilas 1.0 players sans japeth(TNT)? :rolleyes:

reamily
11-04-2011, 08:16 AM
a 3rd team for MVP group with gilas 1.0 players sans japeth(TNT)? :rolleyes:

part of the concession is they will release japhet to the gilas team PLUS


Slaughter and Ramos

Silent Killer
11-04-2011, 08:19 AM
part of the concession is they will release japhet to the gilas team PLUS


Slaughter and Ramos

that's good concession.

Jay P. Mercado
11-04-2011, 09:09 AM
Yes, JPM. That's why I did not mention Mr. Danding Cojuangco because it was the Soriano's who were back at the helm of San Miguel in the aftermath of the first EDSA Revolution.

But regardless of who was at the helm of that time, it can't be helped to point out that the NCC players could have been dispersed to all the teams, much like the Gilas boys in 2010.

Stil, Mr. Cojuangco may also be responsible for what has happened because it was he who announced San Miguel's leave of absence from the PBA after the 1985 season to concentrate on amateur basketball, of which he was then the acknowledged godfather.

Thus, Alaska's first team was made up of the Magnolia Quench Plus, including even the playing assistant coach, Norman Black.

Now here is the poser, JPM, do you think this would have happened if Mr. Cojuangco did not disband the San Miguel professional team after the 1985 season?

Interesting times indeed back then, during Mariano Yenko's time as Commissioner and with Tommy Manotoc as Deputy Commissioner actually running the show. That threat, as chronicled before, stated that Cojuangco wanted to file a leave of absence (made a mistake of writing 2 months when it should be 2 conferences), was triggered because of his disgust with the officiating which went against his NCC team. It was also rumored back then that Manotoc indirectly gave instructions to the referees by saying that "when in doubt, the call should favor the PBA team."

That threat scared the jitters out of the PBA that they were fortunate to find a team wanting to join the league after EDSA I in Alaska. Had Alaska not joined that season, the league would have been down to just 5 teams - Tanduay, Ginebra, Great Taste, Shell and Manila Beer. In the All Filipino, the PBA more than welcomed the Magnolia-RP Team as guests to ensure that they would have 7 rosters in their playbill. Providentially, when Magnolia returned in the 3rd Conference, corporate rival Manila Beer pulled out of the league after the same 3rd Conference, bringing back the number to only 6 teams - Alaska, Magnolia / San Miguel, Ginebra, Great Taste, Tanduay and Shell.

So was the PBA aware that the Lucio Tan franchise was about to disband that they had to cede the rights of the NCC players to Magnolia as a concession for their return to the PBA? Magnolia reasoned out back then that they didn't have an amateur team back then - which was why it was convenient for them to simply get the nucleus of the NCC team. We all know what happened from there.

Note also those were hard times for the PBA. Commissioner Rudy Salud, in 1988, had to give in to the concessions of the Ayala Group before the latter joined the PBA. With their hands tied with Tanduay's disbandment brought about by the "fake Tanduay Rhum mess" that killed consumers but also led to the Elizalde firm's bankruptcy, the PBA had to accede to Purefoods' request for 4 direct amateur hires (turned out to be Messrs. Patrimonio, Lastimosa, Codinera and Capacio) and the top pick for that season which turned out to be Jack Tanuan. This, aside from getting the nucleus of the powerhouse Tanduay team of 1987 (that won the Open Conference with David Thirdkill) led by Ramon Fernandez, Freddie Hubalde, Willie Generalao, Onchie Dela Cruz, Padim Israel, Jayvee Yango, among others.

Another fodder for thought: What would have happened if the PBA didn't give in to Purefoods' request for 4 amateur direct hires and the top pick of the draft? Since Purefoods was buying a complete Tanduay team back then, it was understandable that concessions won't have to be given to them, not unlike what Alaska experienced when they got the nucleus of Magnolia Cheese in their maiden 1986 season. The one who owned the #1 pick at that time was Shell, which would have been used to collar Alvin Patrimonio. Note that in actuality, they got Ronnie Magsanoc as the second overall pick in the 1988 draft. Ginebra, the second team to draft, would have gotten Jerry Codinera instead of Toby Poblador. Purefoods would have acquired Jojo Lastimosa or Glenn Capacio while Great Taste will probably secure either Lastimosa or Capacio. It would be free-for-all from then on for the services of Magsanoc, Eric Altamirano, Poblador, Dodong Polistico, Joel Santos, Rey Yncierto, and others...

Percival O. Flores
11-04-2011, 09:30 AM
Speculating on the what-if's and what-might-have-been's can sometimes be more intriguing than just stating the facts as they happened.

On the short term, in retrospect, maybe it was good for the PBA to have allowed San Miguel to elevate the NCC player en masse in the 1986 Open, instead of waiting for the 1987 season to start. Not all fans bother with concepts like "parity" and "balance". For them these are alien concepts for as long as their is a super team that they can root for.

In 1987, the PBA after having seven regular members in the 1986 Open, was back to having six teams: Alaska, Ginebra, Great Taste, Shell, Tanduay, and San Miguel.

Then Tanduay disbanded, paving the way for Purefood's entry in the league in 1988. I said Purefoods was granted concessions but not on the same scale as practically elevating the nucleus of the amateur national team into a professional team, as what the PBA generously granted San Miguel.

And unlike the case of the Fil-Ams, this move, although inconsistent with maintaining balanced competition in the league, did not appear to affect the PBA's credibility that time. It may even have enhanced the PBA's popularity.

Maybe times are different. But the influx of Smar Gilas rookies spread among the nine PBA teams (Shopinas had Barocca but traded him immediately to B-Meg) has made for more fan interest in the PBA.

I am just glad that the NCC precedent didn't happen this time.

trig
11-04-2011, 09:48 AM
wow you guys have amazing memory.

For me, it would've been a lot more interesting if Shopinas carried the core of Smart Gilas instead of its current dleague level of talent

Jay P. Mercado
11-04-2011, 10:13 AM
Speculating on the what-if's and what-might-have-been's can sometimes be more intriguing than just stating the facts as they happened.

On the short term, in retrospect, maybe it was good for the PBA to have allowed San Miguel to elevate the NCC player en masse in the 1986 Open, instead of waiting for the 1987 season to start. Not all fans bother with concepts like "parity" and "balance". For them these are alien concepts for as long as their is a super team that they can root for.

In 1987, the PBA after having seven regular members in the 1986 Open, was back to having six teams: Alaska, Ginebra, Great Taste, Shell, Tanduay, and San Miguel.

Then Tanduay disbanded, paving the way for Purefood's entry in the league in 1988. I said Purefoods was granted concessions but not on the same scale as practically elevating the nucleus of the amateur national team into a professional team, as what the PBA generously granted San Miguel.

And unlike the case of the Fil-Ams, this move, although inconsistent with maintaining balanced competition in the league, did not appear to affect the PBA's credibility that time. It may even have enhanced the PBA's popularity.

Maybe times are different. But the influx of Smar Gilas rookies spread among the nine PBA teams (Shopinas had Barocca but traded him immediately to B-Meg) has made for more fan interest in the PBA.

I am just glad that the NCC precedent didn't happen this time.

No disagreement of course. I believe the operative word of these speculative "what-ifs" would be "fun" when thinking about it. How it changed the history of the league is really what truly matters - whether it would have done worse or better would be truly difficult to assess. However, as you cited, the success of the league in the late 80's would more than be enough validation that the previous decisions made turned out to be well and good for the league.

Had a team been given a similar concession in today's PBA pertaining to the SMART-Gilas players, it may or may not have worked. But what has happened though is that these rookies from different teams have generated so much interest in the PBA once more that their respective fan bases have spilled over to their teams now. Marcio Lassiter has brought in his own fans to cheer for Powerade, a team not known for its popularity. Chris Lutz has added more followers to Petron, while Dylan Ababou's followers from UST are cheering for Barako. In the other end of the spectrum, I know of a lot of young UE fans who are now followers of Rain or Shine because of Paul Lee.

Percival O. Flores
11-04-2011, 10:18 AM
wow you guys have amazing memory.

For me, it would've been a lot more interesting if Shopinas carried the core of Smart Gilas instead of its current dleague level of talent

And throw in our compatriot Marcus Douthit for a good measure. :)